Last post on Dec 05, 2013 at 4:17 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#11592 of 20193 Re: robbieg [vanman1]
Feb 17, 2009 (9:46 am)
I see you are GM fan since you have a Malibu and Montana van. Come on admit it you would have considered a Malibu regardless of quality because after all you drive a Montana and used to have a 2000 Oldsmobile. So what cars did you drive besides a Malibu? Did you even try the Accord? Did you buy the Malibu because it was cheaper?
I just think that few people actually cross shop an Accord/Camry and Malibu and actually buy the Malibu unless they are predisposed to buy a GM product. For the most part there are basically two categories of buyers, people people who buy Japanese and people who buy American. Few people bounce back and forth between an American sedan and a Japanese sedan. Unfortunatetly for the Big Three fewer people are buying American. I still think that Toyota and Honda are considered premium brands in comparison to Chevy and Ford. When is the last time that you saw a yuppie, who wasn't selling something, driving a Malibu? The reason for this is that the Big Three are only now starting to build decent cars after building crap since the 1980's.
#11593 of 20193 Re: Sonata [akirby]
Feb 17, 2009 (9:53 am)
So how did Ford manage 41 mpg in the EPA city test?
finally a good question, and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about - yes the Fusion is 'programmed' to allow for all electric use to a higher speed than the TCH. Toyota, historically, has been a champion of setting its cars up to specifically do well in the EPA tests, Ford it seems has outdone them in this case. But the EPA tests have never really been terribly accurate reflections of the real world, something that apparently is continuing to be a problem.
Did Ford rig the test? No, not likely. They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them. Can you point to some journalist somewhere that can go out and rather dangerously have some 'fun' hypermiling - sure it can be done - and that would be the case for either the FFH or the TCH...
#11594 of 20193 Re: Sonata [captain2]
Feb 17, 2009 (10:13 am)
They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them.
You forgot to point out how Ford programmed their airbags to make them perform better in crash tests too. We all know they are the same old vehicles with the same old engines. They just hired some top MIT programmers and voila', the cars test better all around! That's what it's all about right? Tests?
There isn't a single bad review of the new Fusion in existence yet and not one picks any other sedan over it (although a full comparo has yet to be done). Apparently there's more than programming and government testing at work here captain.
and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about
It's actually answered better here but you did sum it up fairly well. MT says they'll do another comparo and try to exploit the Fusion's ability to go faster on the batttery alone to see if the mileage increases significantly. I don't see how it wouldn't.
#11595 of 20193 Re: Sonata [captain2]
Feb 17, 2009 (10:58 am)
That isn't some "programming" trick - it's quite an engineering feat to allow the vehicle to go that fast on battery power alone. The Escape was also better than average but not as good as the Fusion (47 mph). Ford has clearly out-engineered Toyota in this area (for now at least) and it shows in the EPA tests and most real world tests as well.
Driving style has everything to do with mpg as evidenced by Autoblog's mileage test with the FFH. Two editors got over 40 mpg (as high as 46) while the other one only got 36. These are unscientific tests, though.
#11596 of 20193 Re: Sonata [baggs32]
Feb 17, 2009 (11:01 am)
It's actually answered better
Got my mags confused Thanks for the link.
C&D did do a hybrid comparo recently that the Fusion came out on top of though. It certainly does seem logical that if the Fusion is allowing a few extra mphs on the electric motor, that overall FE would be better IF real life driving allowed that condition to happen, something that is not logically happening under the admittedly aggressive hands of MT's drivers. I think the TCH will do things like 0-60 faster (7.6 vs. 8.5) though, leading one to believe that the TCH may be geared more towards the acceleration side of things than the Ford. Sub 8 sec 0-60s pretty darn quick for almost any car, never mind one that can return that kind of FE.
I have no problem with the Fusion itself, it has done much to mend a pretty lousy 'Detroit' reputation. This has been almost universally noted and recognized by quite a number of repected auto experts. Ford the company, however, a different story, and not because of what they are beginning to produce, but instead where they are producing it - and at whose expense.
#11597 of 20193 Re: Sonata [akirby]
Feb 17, 2009 (11:20 am)
I think the Prius remains Toyota's engineering tour-de-force as far as milking the hybrid drivetrain for all it's worth. In any case, however, it is that high level of engineering in any of this type of cars that ALLOWS the mfgrs. to do these 'tricks' I contend they ultimately do all to to pry those precious few extra mpgs out of any car.
#11598 of 20193 Re: robbieg [robbieg]
Feb 17, 2009 (2:09 pm)
Before my Intrigue I had an Accord and before that a Civic. I would never have considered the previous Malibu, it was cheap plastic everywhere and pretty bla in terms of styling. Montana van is for my wife's business, I rarely drive it.
Before buying a Malibu I tested an Accord, an Impala, an Altima and a Fusion. I used to like Hondas but I see the value of many American brands which is why we have had a few GM's now. I actually almost went with a Fusion but I could not find an 08 left with a V6 when I went to buy. I actually had trouble finding a 08 Malibu also, they sold out quick in the fall when GM had 0% for 72 months in the fall. Honda had 1.9% for 48 months or 3.9% for 60, not near as good. I also didn't care for the dash or the looks of the new Accord.
My friends are mostly professionals and it's really a mix of U.S. vs Japanese vs Euro. My single yuppie buddy has a Beemer, I can't afford that. Chevy was pretty basic transportation until recently. The Malibu, the Traverse and the coming Equinox and Cruze should slowly give it a more Honda like image though it will take a long while. That said, my Malibu looks very upscale and everyone who sees it and sits in it quickly realizes how nice it is.
#11599 of 20193 Re: Sonata [thegraduate]
Feb 17, 2009 (2:22 pm)
You fail to mention however you will pay upwards of $3,000-$5,000 more for a comparably equipped Camry/Accord. Also, what about the better financing you will most likely get and the interest you save over the 5 year loan with the Sonata? What about the 10 year warranty also. No repairs out of pocket for the Sonata.
#11600 of 20193 Cannot believe
Feb 17, 2009 (2:39 pm)
the anti-Ford attitude in this room. Ford has come a long way since the 80's. Seems as though some just can't get out of that mind set. I find it ironic how a Toyota or Honda product can improve, yet a Ford product cannot?. Or better yet, A Ford (Fusion Hybrid) outperforming a Toyota (Camry Hybrid)?? Some say it cannot happen, test was rigged? Well, folks, its happened. Take a look around the internet the Fusion Hybrid is pounding the Camry Hybrid. Yes, Ford out engineered Toyota. Heck! I can imagine what is going to happen when Hyundai out engineers Honda. No, this cannot happen..
#11601 of 20193 Re: Sonata [thegraduate]
Feb 17, 2009 (3:38 pm)
I beg to differ with ya; I was upfront with the vehicles I chose. Lower model Accords compete with upper level Sonatas on price. Same with Elantra/Civic.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The discussion was resale value, not retail price used. Resale value is either trade-in value or private party sale value; not used retail price. For the majority of people out there it will equate to trade-in value as relatively few go through the added steps of doing a private party sale.
To reiterate my point, if Car A cost $20K new and is worth $5K resale while Car B cost $23K new and has a resale of $7K, then Car B's higher resale in reality means Car B cost $1K more to own than Car A (other operating cost differences excluded). The brands, models, equipment levels, etc. do not matter.