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Sedans Midsize Sedans 2.0
13212 messages, Last post on Nov 21, 2009 at 7:27 PM
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 17, 2009 8:24 am) Care to explain that? A Prius certainly does not cost 100K,and what is a FFH?
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Replying to: mickeyrom (Jan 17, 2009 9:35 am) Even though Ford has modest sales goals for the Fusion Hybrid, it will be interesting to see how it does if gas stays below $2 a gallon. The hybrid starts around $27k, and a Fusion I4 can be had with decent equipment for under $20k--with improved fuel economy for the 2010 model year. Those who are OK spending $27k+ for a hybrid may turn to the 2010 Prius, if it is roomy enough. Then there's the 2010 Insight, reportedly starting well under $18k, if a smaller car will fit. The Insight is a compact, though, so not direct competition for the Fusion. But I think the Prius is. As is the Camry hybrid of course, which is improved for 2010 MY also and has a starting price less than the Fusion.
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Replying to: mickeyrom (Jan 17, 2009 9:35 am) The Prius sells at about 100,000 units per year is what he was implying. Since Ford already has trouble meeting the demands for the Escape / Mariner Hybrid, I have no doubt that Ford will have any issue selling the 25,000 the intend to build. |
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Replying to: backy (Jan 17, 2009 9:54 am) They compete in FE only. Sure they are sized similarly but the Fusion, and Camry for that matter, are much more refined and better as daily drivers than the Prius (I've never driven one so this is purely off of what I've read over the years). If you still think the Prius is a direct competitor to the FFH then you must think it competes with it's lot-mate the Camry hybrid right? Why would Toyota put two competing cars on the same lots everywhere? As is the Camry hybrid of course, which is improved for 2010 MY also and has a starting price less than the Fusion. The FFH offers a bit more than the Camry hybrid though. To get any sort of high tech readout of the hybrid system in the Camry you have to get the nav. The FFH offers a high tech solution to that want right out of the box. Then there's the FE gap between the two and some other small things that, IMO, make the Fusion worth the extra grand or grand and a half over the Camry.
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Replying to: baggs32 (Jan 17, 2009 6:15 pm) As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that.  While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix. If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception, e.g. "Car sales are way down, you are asking taxpayers to provide you with a line of credit, and you want HOW much for that Fusion??" People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however.  (Toyota sales reps and fans, please note the after that last comment!)
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Replying to: backy (Jan 17, 2009 8:24 pm) Ummmm, Ford did not ask for that. Yet. Have you seen the 2010 Taurus? Times are changing. Yes, I think the Fusion, Camry, and Prius are competitors for some buyers--including me. But not all buyers of course To some, yes. But for an SUV buyer like me, it's the more plush vehicle for me. That means the Prius is out of the equation. I'd wager most of the buyers will be like me and not you. But that is yet to be seen. As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that. Ford is not innocent here either. The Flex and TX are competitors as are the Escape and Edge to an extent. The TX is gone now though so I'm not sure where Toyota is going. While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix. All good points. Again, don't know what they're thinking. Their sales are really bad too, way worse than Ford last month actually, if you haven't heard. If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception Ah, but the perception might change once they sit in both. The FFH has that standard, customizable display in the IP which the Camry hybrid lacks. I bet that eye candy sways a lot of shoppers. 25k is not a lofty goal for this car and I see no problem with them selling all of them. Especially because that includes Milan hybrid sales to IIRC. There are currently 2 2009 Escape hybrids (FEH for short) available in my area. But both are $36k+ loaded Limited models so they go last. The salespersons laugh at you when you ask for a moderately equipped FEH. YMMV of course. People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however. Well, the "Saved by 0" campaign didn't save their sales enough. Word is Toyota is going to begin a big incentive run soon. I'm due for a new lease soon and I'm pulling for a new Ford. Problem is, they aren't' leasing real well right now and Toyota and Honda are. I want to help the Big3 but I can't if they don't help me.
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Replying to: baggs32 (Jan 17, 2009 10:41 pm) (Ford) asked Congress for a $9 billion line of credit it could draw on if market conditions continue to deteriorate. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081203/AUTO01/812030394 Not that I think that this would or should have much impact on what a buyer may think a Fusion is worth.
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Replying to: baggs32 (Jan 17, 2009 10:41 pm) We already have some empirical evidence on this, to wit, what are the sales numbers since the Camry Hybrid was introduced of that car vs. the hatchback Prius? Or add up the total sales of the CH, the Altima Hybrid, and the GM sedan hybrids over that time and compare to Prius sales. That might give some indication as to whether hybrid buyers prefer a mid-sized sedan or mid-sized (if marginally) hatchback configuration. As to the effect of Ford's financial situation on pricing, I agree there is no direct effect. I think there is a psychological effect, however, i.e. I think many buyers expect "fire sale" prices from automakers now because of market conditions. That's why I think a $27k base (more loaded) FFH will be a tough sell while gas prices stay low and they sit next to regular FFHs with excellent FE numbers for their class at about $10k less--fancy displays with leaves sprouting and bunnies dancing (OK, maybe not that) notwithstanding.
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Prirus is NOT a mid-size sedan to some people, myself included. You cannot just raises the trunk to have more space inside thus making this car to be a mid-size car. The great mileage on the Prirus b/c: 1. it's a compact sedan. 2. it has a tiny engine w/ low HP than any sub-compact sedans. If you compare the Prirus to other small engine cars (1.5L) like the Yaris, Fit, or Versa, the mileage is not much better but the HP is a lot lower.
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Replying to: gooddeal2 (Jan 18, 2009 6:51 am) Um, sorry, that's really not true. Are you sure you compared them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Nissan Versa, 122hp - 24-27 city / 31-33 hwy *Toyota Yaris, 106hp - 29 city / 35-36 hwy *Honda Fit, 117hp - 27-28 city / 33-35 hwy *Toyota Prius - 110hp - 48 city / 45 hwy (19-24mpg better city / 9-14mpg better hwy) ----------------------------------------------------------- (Up to 100% better fuel economy than the vehicles you mention, with at most, 12 fewer horses). Pretty big economy differences with little power-tradeoff if you ask me!
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