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Sedans Midsize Sedans 2.0
13143 messages, Last post on Nov 10, 2009 at 6:29 PM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 31, 2008 11:59 pm)
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Replying to: backy (Jan 01, 2009 5:54 am)
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Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 01, 2009 6:36 am) No, production car currently uses such a system, though they should, since it would cost a lot less and easily get 100mpg. ***(from wiki)*** In 1901, while employed at Lohner Coach Factory, Ferdinand Porsche designed the "Mixte", a series-hybrid vehicle based on his earlier "System Lohner-Porsche" electric carriage. The Mixte broke several Austrian speed records, and also won the Exelberg Rally in 1901 with Porsche himself driving. The Mixte used a gasoline engine powering a generator, which in turn powered electric hub motors, with a small battery pack for reliability. It had a range of 50 km, a top speed of 50 km/h and a power of 5.22 kW during 20 minutes. The first such vehicle was exactly as I described, so by definition, such a design IS a hybrid vehicle as well. The Prius and Honda methods are needlessly cumbersome and complicated.
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Replying to: plekto (Jan 01, 2009 9:51 pm) If that design was so superior - why hasn't it already been built? |
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Replying to: plekto (Jan 01, 2009 9:51 pm) As for the Volt... anyone who can actually afford one, and thinks it will pay off for them compared to a hybrid like the 2010 Fulan or Prius, go for it. |
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Replying to: plekto (Jan 01, 2009 9:51 pm) The Prius and Honda methods (both of which are different, by the way), as well as the Ford method, have one distinct advantage, as mentioned. They have been proven to be practical in the real world. That "series-hybrid" which you described, which for the sake of argument we'll call "series-hybrid," ok? Anyway, it hasn't proven practical in cars. Trains, yes. Trains are hideously expensive. Cars, no. They're trying with the Volt, but the fact is you have to have batteries in between, because below a certain size, an electric generator doesn't produce enough electricity to move itself and its fuel around. 5.22 kW isn't enough to move the lightest car around unless it doesn't meet crash standards. And that 1901 car could only go about 25 MPh...and in fact could only go about 25 miles, which means it was only carrying around an hour's worth of fuel, which isn't much. Fuel is heavy. To carry more around you need more power, which means you need a bigger generator, which means you need more power and more fuel, which means you need to pull more weight, which means you need more power, which means you need a bigger generator, etc. The Volt comes close to your series-hybrid design, but still needs batteries to act as storage/capacitors. It's going to be $40,000 to start. You can get a Toyota/Ford/Honda style hybrid for half that.
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Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 02, 2009 6:50 am) You basically need a 40-50HP motorcycle engine that's designed to run at one optimal speed to generate power. But the car would have some batteries to handle passing and acceleration of course, since you don't usually NEED more than 40-50hp in a car at highway speeds except for brief periods of acceleration. Toyota and Honda designed the cars that way so that they could run purely on gas if the batteries ran down to nothing. More of a fallback measure, when it's really not required. They would have done better with a half sized engine just generating power. Why did they do this? Because if the batteries go completely dead, then it would chug along like a VW Bug(say a really long mountain pass you're climbing up). Myself, I don't really care about going a bit slower for 3-4 miles if it means the rest of the time it gets 100mpg+.
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Replying to: plekto (Jan 02, 2009 10:25 pm) maye enough to pull over to the side of the road, if you run out.
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C/D compared four mid-sized hybrid sedans in its February issue: Altima, Camry, Fusion, and Malibu. Don't read further if you don't want to learn how they were ranked. The Malibu, a "mild" hybrid, was ranked last by a large margin. It averaged only 29 mpg on a 300 mile test loop that combined rural, highway, and urban driving. Consider that some non-hybrid mid-sized sedans can get very close to that. C/D also had gripes on the interior comfort and quality, and how abruptly the engine engages from auto-stop. Next was the Altima. It actually did a tad better than the Camry in FE overall, 32 to 31 mpg, and was the quickest of the four. But it was knocked for lack of refinement. The Camry was second and was praised for its silky operation and interior quality. But as is typical for C/D reviews of Toyotas, it was knocked for being like an "old man's car". The Fusion was their top choice by a significant margin, averaging 34 mpg on the test loop. It was also praised for combining Toyota smoothness with driving involvement. I was wondering about the value proposition of these hybrids though. For example, the Fusion starts at $28k and was $32.5k as tested. Given that a I4 sedan can be had for about $10-12k less, and could probably average at least 25 mpg on a combined rural/highway/city loop, the savings in gas at 15k miles a year and $4/gallon is about $635 a year. Quite a payback time--and gas isn't at $4/gallon now. Also consider that the Camry did the best on the highway of the 4 cars yet got 34.8 mpg there. Some mid-sizers could get very close to that if not match it on the highway. In the city, though, the Fusion got 36.9 mpg. That is perhaps double what a non-hybrid mid-sizer would do. (But the Malibu got only 19.8 mpg city!) So it appears the value proposition for full hybrids like the Fusion is best when the car is mostly driven in the city.
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Replying to: backy (Jan 03, 2009 7:22 am) Ah, and just think, if it stays cheap, we will be reading years from now about how stupid the managements of Ford and GM were for wasting all this money developing hybrids, instead of upgrading their profitable trucks and SUVs.  I assume there are more differences than just the hybridness if there is a $10-12K price difference. 
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