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BMW History and Engine Technology

68 messages,  Last post on Dec 06, 2009 at 9:15 PM

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What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, BMW 5 Series, BMW M3, BMW M5, BMW 7 Series, BMW M6, Automotive News, Coupe, Convertible, Sedan, Wagon

#40 of 68 Re: BMW 2.5 V6 [shipo] by brightness04 Mar 26, 2007 (9:11 pm)
Replying to: shipo (Mar 26, 2007 7:25 pm) Forged steel sleeves are probably stronger than the cylinder surface inside composite blocks, aluminum blocks or even cast iron blocks. Turbo engines tend to run hotter and more prone to detonation, so forged steel sleeve is a common tuner house trick. At the back their heads, the decision makers at BMW probably also wanted to avoid any chance of repeating the Alusil fiasco of the mid-90's.
#41 of 68 Re: BMW 2.5 V6 [shipo] by habitat1 Mar 27, 2007 (2:33 am)
Replying to: shipo (Mar 26, 2007 7:19 pm) "For my money, gimme an engine that is always in balance; regardless of load and regardless of RPM. That leaves me with an I6, an H6, a V8 (not technically true as all V8s are a little bit out of balance), or a V12."   Well, shipo, I must say I'm impressed with your knowledge regarding engine technology and "balance". I'm completely ignorant, justing letting my test drives determine whether I like one car/engine over another. So how would a 911's "Boxer" 6 cylinder or BMW's V10 fit on your list?   And, given that my former Honda S2000 and current TL had "out of balance" engines, what should I have noticed in my test drives? Vibration at certain rpms?
#42 of 68 Re: BMW 2.5 V6 [shipo] by circlew Mar 27, 2007 (4:13 am)
Replying to: shipo (Mar 26, 2007 7:03 pm) Shipo, Thanks for that. Here is some back-up to your thesis.   Inline 6-cylinder engines    A straight-6 engine is simply two 3-cylinder engines mated symmetrically together, thus piston 1 is always in the same position as piston 6, piston 2 the same as piston 5 .... in other words, the engine is balanced end-to-end and requires no balancer shaft, unlike 3-cylinder engines.   What about vertical / transverse forces? like 3-cylinder engines, the vertical and transverse forces generated by individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration.   Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models.   Regards, OW
#43 of 68 Articles by pat HOST Mar 27, 2007 (5:57 am)
Here are some links you will enjoy if you haven't seen them previously - or even if you have!   BMW History   BMW 3-Series - Generations   BMW 5-Series - Generations   Enjoy!
#44 of 68 Suggestion by designman Mar 27, 2007 (7:23 am)
It seems the conversation is geared to all engines. Even though BMW is in the spotlight, comparisons are being made and they are interesting. I would change the title of the thread to something like Engine Design and Technology. Historical aspects are intrinsic but the main focus is the current era so I would leave history out of the title. If this is BMW-only, you could be handing out a lot of tickets for digression.   Replies to this message: kdshapiro (Mar 27, 2007 7:27 am) pat (Mar 27, 2007 7:37 am)
#45 of 68 Re: Suggestion [designman] by kdshapiro Mar 27, 2007 (7:27 am)
Replying to: designman (Mar 27, 2007 7:23 am) I agree, and maybe move this thread into news and views.
#46 of 68 Re: Suggestion [designman] by pat HOST Mar 27, 2007 (7:37 am)
Replying to: designman (Mar 27, 2007 7:23 am) I am suggesting that we add history into the mix and focus primarily on BMW. I'm not worried about other engines creeping in.   KD, the discussion is linked to other BMW boards and it's fine right here.
#47 of 68 Re: BMW 2.5 V6 [shipo] by bruceomega Mar 28, 2007 (12:22 pm)
Replying to: shipo (Mar 26, 2007 7:25 pm) shipo,   Thanks for the information. I forgot about things like additonal plumbing and cooling, and you are correct, the 535 cars have bigger brakes than the 528s. In fact, the brake diameter on the 535s is the same as on the 550.   Bruce
#48 of 68 Catching up... by shipo Mar 28, 2007 (2:26 pm)
Sorry gang, Mrs. Shipo is working in Hong Kong this week and so in addition to picking up her half of the duties with the kids, I've had some pretty significant deliverables due this week. As such, I haven't had any time for recreational clicking.   brightness04   "The 3.2 M3 engine is the only high output engine (i.e. not a long stroke engine designed for torque) with more than 3 liter that ever got put into the 3 series, which happens to be BMW's core business. It has to resort to iron block for packaging reasons, as an aluminum block would have been too long to fit into the car, and still leave enough passenger/trunk volume plus crumple zones. That's the point that I have been making."   I think that's a matter of conjecture. With the expanding girth of late model BMWs; it seems to me that there should easily be enough room for a non-iron block 3.5 liter, maybe even a 4.0 liter I6. That said, anything above 3.0 liters is encroaching on the V8 realm, and as V8s are nearly as well balanced as I6s, there may well not ever be a need for BMW to build a new I6 above the 3.0 liter threshold.   As for the piezoelectric vibration band-aids and all of the other isolation steps that other makers have brought to bear on the problem, no thanks. I like feeling what's going on. I'm firmly in BlueGuyDotCom's camp here; the E90 is a step backwards in terms of isolation and damping. As such, your comment that said, "Regardless the virtues of V6 vs. I6 in the vibration department, Lexus achieved completely vibration-free cabin and steering long before BMW did; BMW is only catching up in that regard with the latest E90." is actually quite backwards in my opinion. From my perspective, the E90 has actually lost ground to Lexus in this regard, not caught up.   "Forged steel sleeves are probably stronger than the cylinder surface inside composite blocks, aluminum blocks or even cast iron blocks. Turbo engines tend to run hotter and more prone to detonation, so forged steel sleeve is a common tuner house trick. At the back their heads, the decision makers at BMW probably also wanted to avoid any chance of repeating the Alusil fiasco of the mid-90's."   Hmmm, I would have said, "Forged steel sleeves are probably more durable than the cylinder surface inside the composite blocks. I'm splitting that hair because as I understand it, the cylinder wall surfaces are harder than steel, just not as thick.   As for the "Galnikal fiasco" or "Nikasil fiasco", that really isn't relevant here. Why? BMW extensively tested those engines in Europe and had extremely good success with them. They had also used Nikasil liners on their motorcycles sold here in the States for some time before the M60 V8 was introduced over here. So why did Nikasil fail over here and only in cars? Apparently the higher heat of the motorcycle engine (that didn't require specific smog numbers) counteracted the effects of the higher sulfur North American fuels, and it was that extra sulfur that ate away at the Nikasil cylinder walls.   habitat1   "So how would a 911's "Boxer" 6 cylinder or BMW's V10 fit on your list?"   Regarding your Boxer six, boxer engines are generally referred to as "H" engines (Horizontally opposed), and as such, it was listed in my post as an H6. Boxer engines starting from H4s are perfectly balanced; however, unless the H4 is a two stroke, the whole torque reversal thing rears its ugly head again.   Regarding the V10, nope, not on my list. V10s are shakers. Period, full stop, the end. As such, no thanks.   "And, given that my former Honda S2000 and current TL had "out of balance" engines, what should I have noticed in my test drives? Vibration at certain rpms? "   Don't know. I've never been in an S2000 and my limited seat time in a TL is, well, just too limited. That said, Honda has been pretty good at band-aiding engine vibrations so you may not have felt anything.   circlew   Yeah, I'm a fan of Boxer engines. The plane that I'm looking for has a H6, and even though many folks have replaced that engine with larger and more powerful H4s, no thanks. The H6 is just soooo much smoother to fly behind.   bruceomega   Yeah, BMW pulled the same thing with the E39. When they went from the 540i & 528i lineup to the 540i, 530i & 525i lineup in 2001, the 525i got the brakes from the 528i while the 530i got the brakes from the 540i.   Best Regards, Shipo Replies to this message: brightness04 (Apr 02, 2007 11:44 pm)
#49 of 68 How's this... by fedlawman Mar 31, 2007 (9:37 am)
...for an out-of-balance I4 and primitive suspension?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-V3TaNGss Replies to this message: circlew (Mar 31, 2007 10:01 am)

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