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Automotive News & Views Automotive News & Views-Archives GM Is on The Offensive. Will it work? 
7057 messages, Last post on Sep 04, 2007 at 8:13 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views-Archives Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: xrunner2 (Aug 08, 2007 6:40 am)
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Replying to: 1487 (Aug 08, 2007 7:45 am) Too soon to tell if gap has closed. April 2007 issue of CR page 23 shows reliability trends over last 10 years. Reliability of Toyota and Honda vehicles that are 2 to 10 years old is better than GM by wide margin. We will not know whether or not GM closed the gap with their 2007 models with Toyota and Honda until perhaps 2009. American cars today are as reliable as "reliable" Japanses cars of a few years back but CR moves the bar up each year so that the same low problem rate that got you a red circle 10 years ago gets your a clear circle now. Question is whether Japanese are advancing their quality/reliability at same, faster or slower rate than GM. If Japanese are slowing down, then perhaps GM can catch them. Again, won't see any clear indicators of 2007 vehicles until 2009, 2010. To suggest that we are still waiting for the day when GM can field reliable vehicles is absurd and totally contradictory to the data we have from JD power and CR, not to mention anecdotal experiences mentioned here. It is the degree of reliability. When April issue of CR shows graph, like page 23, in 5-10 years, that shows slope of GM at same or lower level than Toyota or Honda, then we will know that GM has caught up or passed Toyota or Honda. Its time to join up with reality and stop living in the past. According to CR April page 23, "reality" is that if you have a 3-10 year old GM, you are likely to have more problems than a similar aged Toyota or Honda. Don't know about "Joining up", but if one were looking for a 3-10 year old used vehicle, they would be wise to check out April 2007 issue of CR for reliability ratings, used cars to avoid, used cars that are good bets, etc.
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Replying to: 1487 (Aug 08, 2007 7:45 am) Yet in the same post you say the gap has closed? How can you say both with a straight face?  There is some support to say the gap is shrinking. There is no evidence (especially from CR) that the gap has closed. And the evidence it is shrinking is only for a few spare and rare models, mainly the Fusion. With the Big 3, it's hit and miss with reliablity, and that is a huge problem. Again...2 problems in 100K miles might not seem like a lot, but if those two problems cost you $1,500 each, your out 3K and probably several days of rental car costs, not to mention wasted time. And yes, if you read the inside cover letter from the chief of CR in their annual issue, you'll know they directly respond to the critics at least once every year regarding their philosophies, methodologies, and such. Their explanation MORE than satisfied me. I do read the details of CR's numbers, and nowhere do I find the differences to be "minimal" between solid black and solid red. I think as the bar is raised over the years, there is nothing wrong with CR raising their own bar of standards. I wouldn't want my new microwave to be "good" compared to the first one ever built, would you? Therefore, I don't want my new Corvette to not be any better than the first one ever built either. I sure hope the TV I bought last year is better than the one I had in the 80's! If you domestic fanboy's want to live in the past, have at it, but continual improvement is where the Japanese are headed (and Germans too) Except for maybe Mercedes, but that's probably Chrysler's fault.
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Replying to: 1487 (Aug 08, 2007 8:03 am) "Biased"? Of course, you have facts and sources to back that up. |
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Replying to: jsmilesrmhs (Aug 08, 2007 9:59 am) Should GM be getting into RWD? Seems like a good plan to me. Since they have so many different divisions, they can be both FWD , RWD, AWD, electric car, hybrid car, heck whatever car company. Pontiac, to become an all performance division, getting those Holden cars kinda makes sense. And Cadillac should be mostly or all RWD. Only problem would come if Buick some day was RWD and thus not upper class in FWD available to those with such a need, or desire. Going back in my time machine, I did like the handling and looks of my Opel Manta Rallyee. There has been much talk about space utilization, though I did not see it as any problem and the car was light and small. Well, it was a coupe. For the family car, I can see the benefits to FWD. If you drive a FWD all your life, or even a good long time, you kinda forget the RWD car feel, from steering to launching the car off the line, and nice little push as you round the corner. Guess I am old, but smokin' tire up front to me looks more like my engine is on fire. Guess it was driving a Miata in 2002 which brought back the desire to own RWD again. No, I wasn't smokin' tires  though I did try, you know on gravel. I presently have a FWD car with all that electronic jazz. I must admitt, it drives well - handles well. Still thinking of getting a true sports car again. It just gets in you. And yes, FWD and AWD handle great with new car setups. Some will still long for the RWD. Maybe it is a third or the cars, or even half of the line, but at least some of the cars should be RWD. One final note: Add a roll bar to the Solstice and Sky or at the very least some way to have one attached. Loren |
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Replying to: sls002 (Aug 08, 2007 8:29 am) Do you honestly think that a bunch of Toyota/Honda fanatics conspired to create CR and only accept "biased" subscribers' money?
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Replying to: lemko (Aug 08, 2007 8:47 am) Part of it probably comes from seeing some GM cars on the same "don't/avoid lists" as the Dodge Neon. I saw some GM cars get the same slew of black dots as the Dodge Neon. I saw Ford do the same too. I got upset with the Big 3 for making cars like the Dodge Neon, that got similar results, with similar outcomes. |
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Replying to: andres3 (Aug 08, 2007 10:02 am)  Yes, I would not be impressed with black dots showing up on a report of my car, be it in the past or into the future. I do see however how the distance between saint and sinner has shortened. To that end both sides here are correct. I am thinking that hate, being a strong motivator, though a nonproductive motivator, may be blinding you from seeing progress by GM and hearing what others have to say in support of their views. While I had some silly things happen to my '76 car, with a good sense of humor about the whole affair, and a feeling of learning something, I went on with life. And in looking back now, I see all the fun I had with that technically terrible car, and smile. I bought some strange cars, no doubt, and my Dad seemed to have found more good one's of GM brand than I, but it was not all bad. I kid those on the board here about having the perfect cars. Of course it is possible to have perfect anything, while someone else buys a lemon. So what. It is all good debate as to what is better in the market place. Rather than us vs. them for judging cars, I wish it all could just get back to the basics, as in building the better car. Still believe in the case for GM, it is the cars which Japan and Europe do not build, and in some cases would have trouble building. Ya know a BMW El Camino would seem a little silly. What a BMW truck? Next thing ya know people will be telling me Porsche and Cadillac sell SUVs. Life is good, ease up on the hate and chill, Loren |
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Replying to: carguy58 (Aug 08, 2007 6:27 am) |
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Replying to: gsemike (Aug 08, 2007 9:28 am) reading is fundamential. Why not attack things I actually said in the correct context instead of making things up? I know its much easier to play dumb. I mentioned the 300/Charger in response to a comment about domestic cars lacking value compared to comparable imports- I never said they were GM products. The 300/Charger and many GM vehicles are examples of how customers typically get more for their money with domestics. |
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Automotive News & Views Automotive News & Views-Archives GM Is on The Offensive. Will it work?
