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Sedans Lexus IS Pontiac G8 vs BMW 3-Series vs Lexus IS 350
102 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 8:22 AM
You are in the Lexus IS Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: kdshapiro (Mar 10, 2007 1:21 pm) Wonder when you could order one, sight unseen. There's always people out there that do so. I need to drive it before I buy it. -Brian |
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Replying to: laurasdada (Mar 10, 2007 6:41 pm)  GM, will be #1 for the next 80 and if they aren't their will be hell to pay in Congress, and congress knows this already thus is why you will see change as bills are already being drawn up to level the playing field a bit  Rocky
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Replying to: rockylee (Mar 12, 2007 12:33 am)
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Replying to: motownusa (Mar 12, 2007 3:53 am) Does anyone really see this bleeding stopping anytime soon? Is there any real changes that will turn around the slide? I know the true answers but what do I really know? Just one thing...the trucks are OK and the C6 is great but the rest I would leave for distance shores. Too many great choices for it to end well for this once great but arrogant company. The definition of insanity is expecting change without change. Regards, OW |
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Replying to: rockylee (Mar 12, 2007 12:33 am) Bills are being drafted to outlaw the UAW??? That will certainly help level the playing field...  I appreciate your allegiances to GM, but I really think that the fault lies within GM, not the stars... For YEARS AND YEARS they kept building the same terrible cars. Instead of improving interiors, upgrading engines, better build quality, etc. they just kept putting lipstick on J-car and X-car pigs. Sure, a core group of loyals kept buying the same ol' same ol'. But were they attracting new blood? The shrinking market share Magic 8 ball says, "No." Personally, the arrogance of GM ticked me off to no end. Did they have some of the best engineering and design talent in the world? Yes. But I guess the Accountants union was stronger. They just kept building the same terrible cars year after year... But, on paper, the future's looking a bit brighter. Mostly from what I've seen of the '08 CTS. Let's hope that history doesn't continue to repeat itself... |
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Replying to: laurasdada (Mar 16, 2007 3:56 pm) laurasdada, The UAW aren't totally to blame. They do blame themselves for allowing idiot beancounter CEO's like Roger Smith, to let the curve go across the plate while GM, was caught looking. The UAW, promised recently they will play a bigger role on product launches and said they will play a role in signing off on it so bad cars do not make it to market causing a loss in jobs. Rick Wagoner, is not the same old traditional CEO we've seen at GM. He knows GM, has the capability to build world class cars like the G8, and 08' CTS. The problem is their is a very unlevel playing field that needs some correction. Yes healthcare, is a major issue nowdays and yes GM, signed the UAW contracts to insure employees of GM get first class healthcare. The difference is GM, is 60-70 years older than Toyota, thus has a large retiree number it has to pay for. These obligations cost billions and instead of knocking GM, for paying these bills we should be proud of them as these folks will not be living off of your nickel when they are old like so many other americans. So I'd rather look at ways to cut healthcare costs in this country instead of griping about it. Toyota, in 15-20 years will face similar problems as more and more employees are elgible for retirement. I think a national healthcare plan is the only solution to get a grip on sky rocketing healthcare costs and fix a broken out of control system. The other major issue as has been discussed is unfair trade policy's. Whether your a democrat, republican, independant, most reasonable folks recognize we have a MAJOR trade defecit problem that keeps growing each year. Foreign governments want to dump freely on our market their exports but put up barriers on our exports. China, for example won't let you sell automobiles their without a huge tariff thus company's like GM, have to build their products in China, instead of the ability to export U.S. built automobiles. As rep. Duncan Hunter (R) California said U.S. manufactors are at a 74% disadvantage before anything is built. This is not fair IMHO. The final major obstacle for domestic manufactors is currency manipulation. The Japanese yen is artficially manipulated by 38%. The Chinese Yaun is 40%. What this means is if Toyota builds a car in Japan, and GM, builds a car in america and all costs being equal their is anywhere between a $2,000 profit advantage on cars selling in teens. approx $3-6K profit advantage $20-35K range. A $12-13K profit advantage on luxury brands $60-70K. We are talking about billions in profits because the yen is artificially manipulated and the Japaense, as recent as last week said they thought the yen was valued to high and wanted to decrease it's value even more. Toyota, still imports 50% of their vehicles. These are the REAL ISSUES that are affecting corporations like GM. Sure GM, can't fix it's past but that doesn't mean its future should be punished because of some bad management of the past. Rick Wagoner, is a good guy and has his heart in the right place. I think we should give him a level playing field to compete on and if GM, still fails they have no one else to blame but themselves. I however am very confident this new GM, will not make the mistakes of it's past and plenty of great cars like the G8 and 08' CTS will be launched over the next couple of years. Some of which we've already have spy photo's of and some we've already seen at auto shows like the 09' Camaro, Enclave, Corvette SS, Chevy Impala, Buick Velite, etc, etc, and the 2008 Pontiac G8's Zeta Architecture is the spring board for many new exciting RWD automobiles. I just hope more american's will be willing to forgive GM's past and give GM, another try in the future. The 2008' Pontiac G8' is an exciting car for those optomistic about GM's return to greatness to take for a test drive. I grew up in a UAW-GM, family and even I and my family now can say that GM, has finally brought automobiles to the market they are proud to build and can be confident on reccommending one to family and friends. Trust me this was a concern in the past. Just my $0.02 laurasdada, it's nice to talk to ya and hopefully we can have more nice discussions like this one in the future. Now back to the G8 vs IS350 & BMW 3 series Rocky |
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Replying to: rockylee (Mar 16, 2007 5:49 pm) Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US! The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage. Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
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Replying to: rockylee (Mar 16, 2007 5:49 pm) Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS. To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going! It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality. You know the rest 'cause it's history. I still have a real bad tast in my mouth. Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better. Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination. Regards, OW |
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| As you all know, these conversations are going on in many places over in Auto News. There has been little comparison of the subject vehicles here so far. If we want to compare them, let's get to it, okay? Otherwise, there's not much point in continuing here. | |
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Replying to: brightness04 (Mar 16, 2007 6:24 pm) Same for you OW Rocky |
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