Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 8:22 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Pontiac G8, BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS 350, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#38 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [laurasdada]
Mar 16, 2007 (5:49 pm)
Bills are being drafted to outlaw the UAW?? That will certainly help level the playing field...
laurasdada, The UAW aren't totally to blame. They do blame themselves for allowing idiot beancounter CEO's like Roger Smith, to let the curve go across the plate while GM, was caught looking. The UAW, promised recently they will play a bigger role on product launches and said they will play a role in signing off on it so bad cars do not make it to market causing a loss in jobs.
Rick Wagoner, is not the same old traditional CEO we've seen at GM. He knows GM, has the capability to build world class cars like the G8, and 08' CTS. The problem is their is a very unlevel playing field that needs some correction. Yes healthcare, is a major issue nowdays and yes GM, signed the UAW contracts to insure employees of GM get first class healthcare. The difference is GM, is 60-70 years older than Toyota, thus has a large retiree number it has to pay for. These obligations cost billions and instead of knocking GM, for paying these bills we should be proud of them as these folks will not be living off of your nickel when they are old like so many other americans. So I'd rather look at ways to cut healthcare costs in this country instead of griping about it. Toyota, in 15-20 years will face similar problems as more and more employees are elgible for retirement. I think a national healthcare plan is the only solution to get a grip on sky rocketing healthcare costs and fix a broken out of control system.
The other major issue as has been discussed is unfair trade policy's. Whether your a democrat, republican, independant, most reasonable folks recognize we have a MAJOR trade defecit problem that keeps growing each year. Foreign governments want to dump freely on our market their exports but put up barriers on our exports. China, for example won't let you sell automobiles their without a huge tariff thus company's like GM, have to build their products in China, instead of the ability to export U.S. built automobiles. As rep. Duncan Hunter (R) California
said U.S. manufactors are at a 74% disadvantage before anything is built. This is not fair IMHO.
The final major obstacle for domestic manufactors is currency manipulation. The Japanese yen is artficially manipulated by 38%. The Chinese Yaun is 40%. What this means is if Toyota builds a car in Japan, and GM, builds a car in america and all costs being equal their is anywhere between a $2,000 profit advantage on cars selling in teens. approx $3-6K profit advantage $20-35K range. A $12-13K profit advantage on luxury brands $60-70K. We are talking about billions in profits because the yen is artificially manipulated and the Japaense, as recent as last week said they thought the yen was valued to high and wanted to decrease it's value even more. Toyota, still imports 50% of their vehicles.
These are the REAL ISSUES that are affecting corporations like GM. Sure GM, can't fix it's past but that doesn't mean its future should be punished because of some bad management of the past. Rick Wagoner, is a good guy and has his heart in the right place. I think we should give him a level playing field to compete on and if GM, still fails they have no one else to blame but themselves. I however am very confident this new GM, will not make the mistakes of it's past and plenty of great cars like the G8 and 08' CTS will be launched over the next couple of years. Some of which we've already have spy photo's of and some we've already seen at auto shows like the 09' Camaro, Enclave, Corvette SS, Chevy Impala, Buick Velite, etc, etc, and the 2008 Pontiac G8's Zeta Architecture is the spring board for many new exciting RWD automobiles.
I just hope more american's will be willing to forgive GM's past and give GM, another try in the future. The 2008' Pontiac G8' is an exciting car for those optomistic about GM's return to greatness to take for a test drive. I grew up in a UAW-GM, family and even I and my family now can say that GM, has finally brought automobiles to the market they are proud to build and can be confident on reccommending one to family and friends. Trust me this was a concern in the past.
Just my $0.02 laurasdada, it's nice to talk to ya and hopefully we can have more nice discussions like this one in the future.
Now back to the G8 vs IS350 & BMW 3 series
#39 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [rockylee]
Mar 16, 2007 (6:24 pm)
UAW having a say on what model gets built? Are we seriously to believe that they will exercise that right in the interest of building better cars or preserving obsolete job positions? The record of UAW influence in starving Canadian plants that have the best quality records do not speak well for discretion.
Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US!
The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage.
Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
#40 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [rockylee]
Mar 17, 2007 (5:25 am)
Here's the deal from the consumers vantage point. I would only buy American cars because I believe what you believe. Honestly. But junk is junk and after many experiences with quality issues in my small world with th U.S. brands, I am sick and tired of waiting.
Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS.
To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going!
It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality.
You know the rest 'cause it's history.
I still have a real bad tast in my mouth.
Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better.
Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination.
#41 of 102 Um, guys?
Mar 17, 2007 (7:45 am)
As you all know, these conversations are going on in many places over in Auto News. There has been little comparison of the subject vehicles here so far. If we want to compare them, let's get to it, okay? Otherwise, there's not much point in continuing here.
#42 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [brightness04]
Mar 18, 2007 (8:06 pm)
brightness, I'll reply to your post in the Big 3 and domestic issues forum. Same for you OW
#43 of 102 Re: Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans With and Without Luxury Badges [rockylee]
Mar 19, 2007 (12:58 pm)
Actually the G8 that you saw with the nice leather interior dash, big wheels, etc., will never make it into production. The production model will be a scaled back version. I'm a bit nervous of what they will do the G8. After seeing the G8 interior at the autoshows, I have a feeling that we will all be disappointed with what the production version will look like.
#44 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [rockylee]
Mar 19, 2007 (1:04 pm)
My tax dollars had better not be spent bailing out GM. If anything, make those union boys work instead of playing cards. Reduce those union boys salaries as they are ridiciously high...big deal...they put a part on a car over and over. Reduce retirement and health benefits to the union boys. GM needs to get their head out of their *** if they ever want to compete with real automakers.
And this is coming from someone who hopes the G8 is the real deal. Too bad we had to rebadge an Aussie car to do it. But the engineers in the U.S. can't develop a decent car...then so be it.
I do believe the 08 CTS will be a huge winner though.
#45 of 102 Re: Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans With and Without Luxury Badges [fenwah]
Mar 19, 2007 (6:25 pm)
Actually the G8 that you saw with the nice leather interior dash, big wheels, etc., will never make it into production. The production model will be a scaled back version.
What ? The interior is a left-side drive Holden Commodore. Sure the color of leather which was ugly anyways in yellow and 20 inch tires won't make it into production yet but the HSV/GXP version will have 20's. Scaled back I think not !!!! Where are you getting your head filled with this hyperbole at ?
I'm a bit nervous of what they will do the G8. After seeing the G8 interior at the autoshows, I have a feeling that we will all be disappointed with what the production version will look like.
Again who is telling you this hyperbole. Got a link of proof ? Sure the interior color won't make it or the 20's but everything else is Holden Commodore production ready.
Go check out the Holden Commodores on YouTube and Holden.com and their you will see a Holden interior which like the GTO's will be the same, only left-hand side for U.S. market
#46 of 102 Re: Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans With and Without Luxury Badges [rockylee]
Mar 19, 2007 (6:37 pm)
Autoblog has a review of the Commodore that tries to relate it to the North American market. Fresh pics of the interior and exterior of the version that is headed here.
Really, the show car had 19" wheels and some skirting and whatnot. That won't make production, maybe on GXP version. Otherwise, as Rocky said, the G8 we've seen at the shows and on the web should be quite similar.
#47 of 102 Re: Pontiac competing with Lexus and BMW ???? [fenwah]
Mar 19, 2007 (6:47 pm)
Your answer will be posted in the forum "possible salvation for domestic automakers" in automotive news and views as this isn't the place to have this go further off-topic.