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Right To Repair - A Hot Issue

575 messages,  Last post on Feb 04, 2013 at 8:06 PM

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What is this discussion about? Electrical

Messages Page 57 of 59

#554 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [steve_] by thecardoc3

Nov 21, 2012 (8:16 am)

Replying to: steve_ (Nov 21, 2012 7:23 am)
http://uptimeblog.enigma.com/the-uptime-blog/tabid/50748/bid/91519/Fewer-Mechani- cs-Fixing-Harder-Problems.aspx
 
They recognize the issue, but fail to comprehend that software won't be the answer. Although they do have quite a chance of adding an additional layer to the CODB. Does that really sound like what you want?

#555 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Nov 21, 2012 (9:40 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Nov 21, 2012 8:11 am)
perhaps but it would prevent customers from being hijacked every time a check engine light goes on.
 
Right now, the trouble code system is arcane and the explanations so badly written you have to wonder if the authors are born english-speakers.

#556 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [Mr_Shiftright] by thecardoc3

Nov 21, 2012 (11:10 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Nov 21, 2012 9:40 am)
perhaps but it would prevent customers from being hijacked every time a check engine light goes on.
 
How many still think that all they need to do is put a piece of tape over the light?
 
As far as "hi-jacking" them goes when you promote that kind of a perspective it's no wonder nothing that we do ever gets to be "right".
  
There is an 05 Durango with a 5.7l sitting outside the shop that a back-yarder, ( DIY'er), was throwing parts at. If anyone hi-jacked her it was that wanna-be tech. With $900 in parts thrown at it and it still couldn't be driven around the block she finally got it towed out of his yard. So what did I find? It has a bent exhaust valve Cyl #2. Now the way it was running made it tough because it wasn't just that one cylinder that was misfiring, it was shutting down the all four front cylinders, and wouldn't idle at all. It wasn't setting any misfire codes. The diagnostics were all done through experience and by using the most up to date routines. (Compression testing with the O-scope and a transducer)
 
Now we are doing the real dance, she is convinced that replacing the car makes more sense than repairing the engine. So she's prepared to spend $30,000 to fix a $2000 problem........
 
Right now, the trouble code system is arcane and the explanations so badly written you have to wonder if the authors are born english-speakers.
 
Hey if you really don't like the scan tool and trouble code method you could try your hand at the loss of communication problem that I repaired on that 99 4-Runner that had neither trouble code generation or scan tool capabilities.

#557 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Nov 21, 2012 (2:17 pm)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Nov 21, 2012 11:10 am)
hey don't knock the black tape method. If you own a German car, it's just about essential equipment. Every time I climb into the mountains on a long upgrade, it'll light up a fuel trim code. The car runs fine, the light goes off. It's just a game we play. Been doing it for years.

#558 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [Mr_Shiftright] by thecardoc3

Nov 21, 2012 (2:30 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Nov 21, 2012 2:17 pm)
Every time I climb into the mountains on a long upgrade, it'll light up a fuel trim code. The car runs fine, the light goes off. It's just a game we play. Been doing it for years.
 
Did you ever consider pulling over and doing a key off/on to allow the system to recalculate for the lower barometric pressure caused by the altitude increase?

#559 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [thecardoc3] by steve_ HOST

Nov 21, 2012 (2:38 pm)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Nov 21, 2012 8:11 am)
Loss of communication faults can somewhat be eliminated or at least narrowed down with alternate circuit routes. Lots of boards do that already and the screen output is such and such a trace is bad. From there you go to a self-repairing board, simply by re-routing the circuit.
 
Isn't it about time for wiring harnesses to simply go away?

#560 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Nov 21, 2012 (3:38 pm)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Nov 21, 2012 2:30 pm)
No, I hadn't thought of that, but I figured what's happening is that the supercharger, being on high boost for long periods, is screwing up the fuel mixture. That little 1.6L is working pretty hard at 8,000 feet, to propel the car at the legal limit uphill.

#561 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [steve_] by thecardoc3

Nov 22, 2012 (1:35 am)

Replying to: steve_ (Nov 21, 2012 2:38 pm)
Cars aren't a big circuit board. Even so different sections inside a PC require wiring to connect them together.
 
As magnificant as PC's are today they are about as complex as a toaster when compared to an automobile. To try and have a car that could have a module select and use an alternate wire to self repair you would have to triple the amount of wiring in the car, and that would be a waste of resources for 99% of the vehicles on the road. Even then the best that would do is cause just enough fewer actual repair events that you remove a significant layer of experience that the techs must have to be proficient to deal with the cars that do end up needing repairs.
 
Looks like we will never get rid of the theme here that mimics the new car dealers perspective. You don't want technicians fixing the cars, you simply want the owner to replace it with a new one no matter how much that method costs them for transportation. That's a good strategy fostered by the people who make their living selling cars, but it's not a good strategy for the average owner. The problem is they have been listening to the other way so long that they think that it's wrong for a car to ever require any repairs.
 
I just repaired a Nissan Sentra for a fellow who is laid off. It was $1400 to give him back transportation that he can rely on for several years to come.
That effort saved him ten times as much money right now, assuming he could even buuy another car since he doesn't have a steady job right now. That Durango I mentioned earlier could be back on the road for about $2000, the owner says she doesn't have that kind of money and somehow thinks that buying a new car will be cheaper for her. She wants another Chrysler AWD SUV. The sales tax she will have to pay will be over $1000, and the depreciation will be double what the repair will be the moment she pulls the new one off of the lot. Her payments on the new one will have her at the break even point by February, except she will still have 56 more months of payments on the new one, meanwhile she could have been putting that money in her bank account if she had simply fixed what she already has. But don't tell consumers that, those manufacturers and dealers need them to replace their cars instead of repairing them!

#562 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [Mr_Shiftright] by thecardoc3

Nov 22, 2012 (1:45 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Nov 21, 2012 3:38 pm)
Both your fuel and timing maps rely on a barometric pressure measurement or calculation. Your check engine light is probably coming on for a rich exhaust code because there is less oxygen available for the same pulse width of fuel. The fuel trims would be trying to correct for that up until they reach the level that the programmers set as the threshold for the system detecting that it is out of control and you end up with a check engine light. By shutting the car off, the system re-measures the barometric pressure and then correctly calculates an appropriate base injector pulse width and that brings the fuel trims back to tolerance. Now if you drive back down the hill, you'll again have to do a restart to allow the system to relearn (or measure) the higher barometric pressure. If you don't do that now the system will code for being too lean. "Basics, basics, basics, always start by checking he basics!"

#563 of 575 Re: shaking out the vote [thecardoc3] by steve_ HOST

Nov 22, 2012 (9:41 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Nov 22, 2012 1:35 am)
PC require wiring
 
PCs yes. But that's a dying category; mature anyway. No loose wires in tablets or smartphones and few if any in most laptops.
 
Automobiles seem complex until you break them down into their various systems. They still got four wheels and running boards, to quote the old Campfire song. Brake system, HVAC, engine, drivetrain, lights and accessories. Fuel system, exhaust and sensors. New safety gizmos (back to the brakes). Peel back the sheetmetal and it's really not rocket science. Make the components easier to swap out and you can just plug and play anything from the alternator to the transmission and send the core back to a rebuild facility where the great techs can refurb them to factory spec. We're already there with BCMs, starters, alternators, engine cores, yada yada.
 
You're not getting the point about rewiring circuits. That technology is already here and the price will fall like all other printed circuits have, so self-repairing computer nodes will be the norm. We're talking a few traces, not six pounds of insulated copper wiring.
 
Something has to give - otherwise the standard in twenty years will be ZipCars and public transportation. Few things are as expensive as owning a depreciating asset like a car and Gen Y may have figured that out early. If you are making $25k a year, a $1,400 repair bill (with no guarantee that something different isn't going to break next month) means that a big part of your working life is spent on transportation.

Messages Page 57 of 59

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