Last post on Mar 31, 2007 at 3:26 AM
You are in the Cadillac STS/STS-V
What is this discussion about?
Cadillac STS, Sedan
#4 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [pri]
Feb 09, 2007 (8:20 pm)
I think you can have the best or damn near it with a under $60K price tag. The Lexus LS sells good because it had the Toyota Emblem called Lexus and the years of brainwashing have finally rooted in to american society. The Volvo S80 for example is 80% of the car the LS is and is $20K cheaper. It would give about as much driving pleasure the LS would for a fraction of the cost. This is where Cadillac needs to be. The STS could give 90-100% of the LS experirence at a $10-15K discount. The LS is over priced and only people on the Left Coast are going to buy them.
The self parking gadget is useless and only hollywood stars will want to own it because they would like to dazzle their friends and have bragging rights over their Mercedes buddy's.
#5 of 22 Cadillac Improvement
Feb 10, 2007 (1:39 pm)
People who are real car fanatics, like myself, are not looking to drive a car that is 80%-90% percent of anything. We are looking for the best of a particular class and that is where Cadillac belongs (or used to anyway). We do not want to "settle" for "almost as good". That is why I bought a new, 12 cylinder, Jaguar XKE years ago and a new, hybrid Prius a few years ago. They were very different cars, but each was the best in its class. The manufacturers didn't settle for "almost as good" when they built them and I didn't either when I bought them. According to the latest interviews I have seen, the Cadillac bosses feel as I do and are planning to dramatically improve the styling and quality of the brand. Build 'em and they will come. About time I say.
#6 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [rockylee]
Feb 10, 2007 (3:15 pm)
I may be wrong, but Cadillac can't possibly want to emulate a Lexus -- the new ones are not driving machines, they are sofa's on wheels.
The current CST and STS and the ones in the pipeline are being honed on the German test tracks. Cadillac seems, to me, to be persuing those who like much of the European car driving experince with some decidedly American style.
To me, Lexus has always been innovative, but not inventive. Cadillac's history has been one of both innovation and invention -- pretty much a European phenom too.
The Japense, especially Infiniti, seem hell bent on becoming more inventive, and they may soon get there.
The new survival instinct that seems to have kicked in at GM and as evidenced in the CTS and the STS (especially the new CTS for 2008, apparently) should bring them back from the brink.
If Cadillac can continue this steady march forward, I, for one, think they can return to being the standard of the world -- or at least catch up with the rest and then pass them up.
I am rooting for them.
The new CTS, if it can be configured with decent variability, could indicate what will be coming in the replacement STS.
Folks wanting an STS, that I know, felt it didn't have the same value proposition as the imports -- and of course, here in Cincinnati at least, GM's response seemed to be discounts upon discounts.
I wanted the STS but the option groupings were insane and the price shot past $60K -- into Audi, BMW and Mercedes territory.
For me, they shot themselves in the foot -- if they come up with sane configurations, I would think the car could compete well.
For me, the STS felt very German-like only when equipped with Magnaride and AWD. Whooooosh -- now passing $60,000.
Why not offer -- for a price -- some of the performance bits that added that feeling behind the wheel that seems to come standard on the Germans? Well, someone's bright idea seems to have been to offer these bits bundled and bundled and bundled so that your $40K car shot up in price 50% when all you wanted was Maganaride and plus sized wheels and tires?
#7 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [markcincinnati]
Feb 10, 2007 (8:10 pm)
#8 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [markcincinnati]
Feb 11, 2007 (12:07 am)
Well I agree with you for once.
When I was referring to the STS, being Lexus like I should of stated that I wanted the interior quality and most of the gadgetology. I want buick to ride and be more like a Lexus without the price tag and agree Cadillac, needs to be more European.
I hope that clears things up. My mistake.
I still think the Cadillac STS needs to be obtainable by the "upper middle class". The STS is a Luxury Performance Sedan (LPS) but would sell very well like the Seville if it doesn't go over the $60K mark. Cadillac, should build a RWD DTS "Big Body" car like a Mercedes S-Class or BMW 7-series that could cross the $60K mark. I have no doubt it could be done and be profitable but it will need benchmark perceived quality, engine, perhaps warranty, Euro-inspired performance to make it work.
The current STS's MSRP is to high and even if it had a better interior and more power it doesn't have the fan base with its current size to garner that MSRP respect. A RWD STS that is 7-series/S-class could however.
#9 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [rockylee]
Feb 11, 2007 (7:48 am)
You have just proposed reversing generations of Cadillac tradition: the DTS (DeVille) being more expensive than the STS (Seville); the target market changing from blue collar buyers to upper middle class; cars that are almost as good as the best (at fire sale pricing) to cars that are the equal of the S-Class and 7-series. That, my friend, is flip-flopping on a world scale that even John Kerry would be proud of.
#10 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [pri]
Feb 11, 2007 (8:20 am)
I guess you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying a DTS per se but the old FWD DTS need to be put out to pasture and like the Europeans and Japanese the bigger car in the premium brands is usaully more expensive.
When I was talking about middle class I guess I forgot to mention the word "upper". Does it really matter as people will site different money figures to break down the class systems in this country ? I guess I look at upper middle class as someone making over $60K as being in the top 20%
Middle Class to most to the best of my knowledge is $45-59K a yr.
I did yes say that the DTS or a equivalent should target its self to upper middle class folks. A person making over $60K a yr. Of course circumstances and cost of living play a roll into affordability. I know that the Cadillac Seville STS was always obtainable by General Motors-UAW employees thus many were owned by employees. However this current generation went up about $10K from 04' to 05' and IMHO it's not a good enough car to demand that kind of premium and the market has proven me right. I also seen for the first time no UAW employees buy top trim V8 models like AWD and most can only dream about affording the STS-V, unless they have a spouse with a killer job or inherited money.
GM, like Mercedes and BMW needs a "Big Body" car like a DTS only larger to tackle the more affluent. I also think they need to go one step further and build the Cadillac ULS with a V-12 or V16 engine to go after the rich. Maybe a V-16 coupe like the Cadillac Sixteen would also be credible enough ? I do believe a V-12 mid engine high performance car would further add prestige to the brand but first they need to get the DTS or like car to RWD before they concentrate on those fish.
#11 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [rockylee]
Feb 11, 2007 (11:33 am)
OK, but we need to be talking about the non-UAW buyers' market. (Note: upper middle class is now in the six figure category.)
Two points to remember:
1. UAW plant line workers get paid way more than the average blue collar worker who is not in the automobile industry for the same amount/type of work so they have a distorted view of the non-UAW plant work force pay scale. This is not a criticism, just a fact. If you can get paid that much then go for it I say and I don't blame you for it. Many professionals (like some CPA's, general practice doctors, military officers and many lawyers) do not get paid as much.
2. UAW plant workers get a significant discount on their company's products when they buy them. Again, I have no problem with that either. It is a common practice in most industries. But how many of your workers could afford the same car, with the same options, without the discount?
In summary then:
1. From what I have been reading, I believe and hope that the next generation STS will be going upscale, with a better quality interior and smoother paint, and not be worried so much about maintaining a low price point. There is a definite attraction to owning a car that your neighbor cannot afford.
2. I am hoping that the 2008 STS will be up to my standards next year when I plan on buying a new car. I would really like to buy another Cadillac!
#12 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [pri]
Feb 12, 2007 (6:18 am)
Well those non-union Toyota workers made $3.00 more than those UAW workers this year.
#13 of 22 Re: 2008 STS Changes? [pri]
Feb 12, 2007 (6:19 am)
Well I hope GM, builds you a car like you want.