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Future Vehicles Chevrolet Volt Concept
28 messages, Last post on Jul 30, 2008 at 3:44 AM
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Replying to: bumpy (Jan 20, 2007 4:30 am) Production depends on advances in battery technology that could be years away.”;GM tries to unplug Volt hype, Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/AUTO01/703230356/1148- If the “VOLT” really achieves 50 mpg when the the battery charge is depleted, then, it stands to reason EVEN WITHOUT THE “advances in battery technology ” GM ALREADY HAS A "MILD" HYBRID  TODAY! As a 50 mpg hybrid (producable today), the “VOLT” would REDUCE CO2 emissions by possibly as much as 170 g/km. Soooo, it can’t do 40 miles “all electric” ... BIIIG DEEEAL! A savings of 170 g/km is a significant impact worthy of serious consideration.  Further, so would the about a 50% (possibly more) reduction fuel consumption over the typical domestic vehicle offerings. To GM ~  WHY THE DELAY?  All GM has to do is save space for a field retrofit when the proper battery pack is available and for current production use a smaller/less expensive battery pack. And I agree with you about a very small CLEAN NEW turbo diesel would probably get in the 60 to 70 mpg combined average range  ... BUT I don't believe GM knows how to build one that is quiet, smooth, reliable, and durable with a wide RPM range.
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If GM were serious, it need not engage in Lithium "research". The Nickel Metal Hydride ("NiMH") batteries used in hundreds of Toyota RAV4-EV, and formerly used in the 1999 EV1, the Ranger-EV and Honda EV-plus, fulfill all the specifications required for the Volt. GM is planning to drag its heels until 2010 or 2012, when it expects the NiMH batteries running our Toyota RAV4-EV fleet to finally wear out. GM is just plain ignoring the existing, standard EV batteries, the ones still giving us over 100 miles range. GM has never answered the challenge: http://drivingthefuture.com/#Challenge This is a Challenge for GM to prove its claims, and prove its Volt announcement wasn't just a cover for killing the Electric car all over again. The challenge below has not been answered with substance by GM, because their position is wrong. The facts show that NiMH works fine, has adequate power, and has a low life-cycle cost.
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Replying to: liveoilfree (Mar 23, 2007 8:57 am) Chevy Volt |
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How you know the Volt is just a futile, public relations ploy: GM is now using it to pump a fuel cell version. Sure, the Volt, or any plug-in serial hybrid, would be a wonderful way to drive essentially "oil-free"...if it were real. But if GM had any intention of actually producing the Volt, they could do it right now. By claiming that "the batteries are not ready", they are LYING. The Panasonic batteries in the 1997 GM EV1 were capable of 110 miles range; the (less-advanced) Nickel Metal Hydride batteries in the 1999 GM EV1 gave it a 160 mile range. The Panasonic (more advanced) Nickel Metal Hydride batteries in the Toyota RAV4-EV (last sold in Nov., 2002) give the small SUV RAV4-EV over 100 miles range (up to 150 if you go slow) for virtually all of the 328 Toyota RAV4-EV that were sold to the general public. Now if the batteries are here, and we can prove it (look at http://WWW.SealBeach.org ), and GM claims they can't build the Volt because the batteries are not here, what does that tell you? IT TELLS YOU THAT GM IS LYING.
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Replying to: liveoilfree (Apr 28, 2007 7:28 pm) |
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One of the reasons listed as justification that the batteries aren't ready is that GM is only planning on allowing a 40 mile EV range. Seems to me that with a greater range the number of recharges could be reduced which would increase the life of the batteries. With the batteries currently available which allow for 2000 - 9000 charging cycles, seems like there is already sufficient battery technology for even the planned range. The justification for having only a 40 mile EV range is a statistic that 78% of the US population commute 40 mi or less to work. It's too bad that this information wasn't used to kick off gathering a little more information about the 20% that commute over 40 miles; e.g., I'll bet that a large number of them live further away from work in a metro area where housing is more affordable at a greater distance from work. I strongly believe that this population would be greatly motivated to purchase the vehicle (even with only a 40 mile range) but would probably opt for a longer range if it was available as an option. I'm thinking that a greater battery capacity could also allow for the potential for greater performance. It would be nice to actually have a vehicle available that was fun to drive instead of just a compromise vehicle used to justify reduced commuting cost. |
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The idea of the Volt is superior to the Prius, whether or not GM is honest about making it. Probably, they are not honest, have not stopped trying to kill the EV. But the argument that serial hybrids cycle vastly more than regular EVs is false. A parallel hybrid's tiny battery cycles each time you accelerate and brake, because it's tied to the gas engine and can't run at highway speed on the battery alone. It's just a tiny boost. But we know that real EVs work; and that's what a serial hybrid resembles. It starts at 100% full, and drives solely on the battery, until that battery is, say, 10%. Then, and only then, does the gas genset chime in, and only to charge the battery or run the EV directly. That's ONE deep cycle. GM, and this poster, are correct that you choose the battery size for the daily commute. So if the daily commute is 100 miles, put in a battery like the 120-mile-range Toyota all-electric RAV4-EV, many of which are just ticking over 100,000 trouble-free miles. If the daily commute, like most of them, is only 40 miles, put in a 40-mile battery. That means, only one cycle per day. If you charge up at the destination (called "convenience charging", although most charging is done off-peak at night, when electric goes begging for customers) that would be exactly TWO cycles per day. Hence, the folks arguing that the Volt "cycles more" really mean they don't understand that the SERIAL plug-in hybrid runs like an EV, not like a gasoline internal combustion ("IC") car. The Prius runs like an IC, the Volt, whether or not it's produced, runs like an EV. The Volt allows you, conceivably, to drive oil-free, but the Prius will always be just a more efficient IC car. All of the Prius energy comes from the GASOLINE PUMP, ultimately. The Volt, or any plug-in serial hybrid, allows you to choose a battery size suited for your daily grind, but also use the same vehicle for occasional gasoline trips. The Volt restricts the gasoline IC engine just to occasional use, and needs very little IC maintenance.
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Replying to: liveoilfree (Jan 19, 2007 5:24 pm) from the article: The recent documentary film, Who Killed the Electric Car?, accused automakers (GM, in particular), of sabotaging the electric car, specifically GM's EV1. GM engineers say the Volt and GM's E-flex wouldn't have been possible without the invaluable lessons learned from the EV1. In fact, many of the same engineers who worked on the EV1 are working on the Volt and E-flex. "EV1 was a good idea, but the Volt is a better one," insists Posawatz. The EV1 carried only two passengers; the Volt accommodates four. The Volt will take a quick charge and requires less than 6.5 hours to fully recharge; the EV1 took eight hours to recharge. The EV1 had no backup system when the batteries died, and its driving range was between 60 and 90 miles. The Volt has a small gasoline engine that kicks in when the battery runs down, delivering a total driving range of 640 miles. "There would never be a situation in which you didn't get home," GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz assures us. The Volt accelerates from a dead stop to 60 mph in less than 8.5 seconds (the EV1 took about a second longer), and has a top speed of 120 mph. (The EV1 would barely reach 80 mph.)
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Replying to: liveoilfree (Jun 08, 2007 7:14 am) A serial hybrid will cycle more than a regular EV. This will be because the battery capacity will have a shorter range than what would normally be considered acceptable in an EV. Using the RAV4 EV as an example, the battery would allow 120 miles per charge cycle, but the Volt battery is expected to only provide 40 miles per charge. This means that the Volt battery must cycle 3 times for each one time that the RAV4 EV would need to cycle. It would be great if GM would actually allow some flexibility in the battery range they will make available, but I guess, if GM actually produces the vehicle, we'll just have to live with having this limited range. Personally I'd like to have an 80 mile range to allow a full days commuting. Since each person has different requirements, it would be in GM's best interest in trying to cater to the widest possible audience without the fewest compromises. While I know that at least one study has determined that 78% of US customers have a commute of 40 miles or less; I believe that there would be a greater percentage of customers in the 22% that aren't being considered that would have a more significant interest in considering a vehicle like the Volt. |
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