Last post on Mar 02, 2010 at 9:36 AM
You are in the Honda Pilot
What is this discussion about?
Nissan Murano, Toyota Highlander, Subaru B9 Tribeca, Honda Pilot, Acura MDX, Volkswagen Touareg, SUV
#731 of 800 Re: Comparisions [tifighter]
Jan 16, 2008 (1:09 pm)
I guess I'm not surprised. It was priced high for a smallish mid-sizer that doesn't offer a 3rd row.
#732 of 800 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD)
Jan 16, 2008 (1:17 pm)
When I evaluate a traction system, the question I ask include:
* is the front axle managed?
* is the rear axle managed?
* is the system engineered for full-time use?
* is the system proactive (vs. reactive)?
* can the system send all the power to either axle?
Subaru's VDC on the Tribeca can do all 5. The PDF above details why.
Mitsubishi drops one for the 3rd criteria. #4 is debatable, but FWD based systems can't go 100% to the rear axle so it misses #5 as well. 3 out of 5 at best.
Even Audi cannot meet the 5th criteria - Quattro uses a Torsen with a 2 to 1 bias ratio, so Audi is limited to send at most 67% of power to either axle.
Subaru makes the best AWD system around.
#733 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [ateixeira]
Jan 16, 2008 (8:13 pm)
Wow! This is the best you can do? This PDF is some research paper on some noname Korean server does not say much and clear about the 5 “criteria” you claim to be important. Where does it say that the Subaru system can send 100% of the power to either axle? All it says that “The output torque of the transmission is distributed 36% to front wheels and 64% to rear”. And no mention what particular car it was installed on as part of this “experiment”. If Subaru’s AWD system would be capable of 100% power transfer to either axle, this would be on Subaru’s site and in every Subaru’s car review and every publication.
“36% to front wheels and 64% to rear“ - so what? The Outlander’s 4WD Lock mode also distributes up to 60% of torque to the rear wheels. And you can get this information not from some weird PDF file, but from the official Outlander site. Outlander’s 4WD Lock mode is a true full-time 4WD. Both 4WD Lock and 4WD Auto modes deliver constant torque to rear wheels and there is no the rear wheels disengagement at any speed.
The Outlander’s AWD system is both reactive and proactive, as any good system should be. It proactively prevents wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions. Even if the driver has not selected 4WD Auto or 4WD Lock modes on a 4WD Outlander model, front wheel spin can be controlled under a variety of conditions. The 4WD Auto (or I would call it 4WD Econo mode) provides better fuel economy while it allows to maintain intelligent torque to the rear axle.
Coupling torque is computed using a combination of feed-forward control, which operates in response to accelerator pedal action, and feedback control, which monitors the speed of the four wheels and computes any difference between front and rear wheel rotation speeds. The system interprets driving conditions and driver input and delivers the right amount of torque to the rear wheels.
The Outlander features standard Active Skid and Traction Control helps to prevent side slipping (spin and side drift) as a result of sudden steering wheel operation or on slippery roads. When it detects side-slipping or wheel spin, ASTC provides integrated control of brakes, engine torque (via the electronic throttle control), transmission and electronically controlled 4WD to improve vehicle stability.
The traction control portion of ASTC provides a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect by helping to prevent wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions. An ASTC OFF switch allows the driver to disengage the system. Instances where that could be useful include driving the vehicle through deep snow, or out of a snowed-in parking space. In such situations, traction control could be a hindrance. The electronically controlled 4WD system does not rely on traction control to distribute power; power distribution is controlled through the electronically controlled viscous coupling, with ASTC influencing that as needed.
And unlike Subaru, the Outlnder is capable of the 100% power transfer to the front axle: just turn the knob at any speed :--)
#734 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [chelentano]
Jan 17, 2008 (8:38 am)
I love how you dismiss an entire Automotive Congress.
Kind of like you deny the legitimacy of the Best Motoring video.
You think it's a marketing video, but no, here is the marketing video you're looking for, this one is indeed produced by Subaru:
You obviously cut and pasted 4 paragraphs, which is plagiarism by the way, without even giving credit to a source.
My response is simple - all that technology you described simply failed to materialize in practice. Car & Driver gave it a score of just 2 out of 5, worst in the test of 9 competitors.
All those acronyms = "felt fragile" on the off road portion of the test.
#735 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [ateixeira]
Jan 17, 2008 (8:42 am)
PS Watch the 4 roller ramp test in the video to evaluate torque transfer. This is what I refered to earlier - the Passat they show has a Torsen and fails to climb the ramp, yet the Subaru succeeds. Note the wheels stop spinning completely.
#736 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [ateixeira]
Jan 17, 2008 (9:37 am)
I re-read that C/D comparo last night; I think the surprise star of the whole test was the Grand Vitara...scored pretty high in areas like Fun to Drive, offers low range and lock for high and low, and was midpack for mileage and acceleration...not bad at all. And it was only one point behind the Outtie for fourth.
Sorry, I'll get back on topic...
#737 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [tifighter]
Jan 17, 2008 (11:01 am)
To me, the surprise was that all the 4 bangers performed so well, even in acceleration.
Jan 17, 2008 (4:29 pm)
Is anyone actually going to the dealers and comparing these SUVs for sale there? We'd love to hear your impressions.
#740 of 800 Re: 5 Criteria for AWD (not 4WD, but AWD) [chelentano]
Jan 18, 2008 (12:15 am)
Speaking of real-world owner ratings the results appear to be very consistent all across the three major consumer ratings sites. Hundreds of owners rated their cars. Sometimes you see some junkie rating there, but overall it’s much more objective vs. some currupted magazine "comparo".
It might appear, that differences are small but they do reflect a trend well:
2007 Honda Pilot 8.6
2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 8.9
2007 Nissan Murano 9.2
2007 Mitsu Outlander 9.2
2007 Honda Pilot 8.9
2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 9.2
2007 Nissan Murano 9.4
2007 Mitsu Outlander 9.5
2007 Honda Pilot 3.5
2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 3.5
2007 Nissan Murano 4.5
2007 Mitsu Outlander 4.5
For the real people the Murano and the Outlander appear to be favorites in this group. both could use improvements, but overall they offer the best balance of styling, comfort, reliability, technology, value and driving fun.
Subarus, on my opinion are little behind in styling and technology, but they are very reliable cars and standard AWD is a great bonus, if fuel economy is not an issue.