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Ford F-150, Toyota Tundra, Chevrolet Silverado 1500, Dodge Ram Pickup 1500, GMC Sierra 1500, Nissan Titan, Car Buying, Truck
#427 of 577 December and full-year sales
by KCRam@Edmunds HOST
Jan 03, 2008 (1:35 pm)
..............Dec 07 / Dec 06 / +/- / CY 2007 / CY 2006 / +/-
F-Series / 55,069 / 70,580 / -22.0 / 690,589 / 796,039 / -13.2
Silverado / 53,560 / 52,396 / 2.2 / 618,257 / 636,069 / -2.8
Ram / 32,118 / 32,875 / -2.0 / 358,295 / 364,177 / -2.0
Sierra / 19,782 / 17,541 / 12.8 / 208,243 / 210,736 / -1.2
Tundra / 19,219 / 12,468 / 54.1 / 196,555 / 124,508 / 57.4
Titan / 4,785 / 5,575 / -14.2 / 65,746 / 72,192 / -9.2
Mark LT / 551 / 1,155 / -52.3 / 8,382 / 12,753 / -34.3
Toyota damn near made their target... give 'em credit, although it took some massive incentives to do it.
Ford took a beating this year; loss of over 100,000 units is a problem.
The 09 F150 and Ram 1500 will both debut at Detroit/NAIAS in a couple of weeks, so Toyota and GM will see if the bar was matched or raised.
kcram - Pickups Host
#428 of 577 Re: Folks chasin fads and looks.. but what bout them that works them ones? [farmerrube]
Jan 04, 2008 (7:28 am)
Its all about size and capacity. If Nissan and Toyota decide to make 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks, of course they can. By the way, hauling six to seven trains down a public highway is illegal. How the heck do you turn a corner? When we hauled fully loaded grain wagons, which are much heavier then the crop your showing on there, we could only legally tow two at a time. Plus, im sure your driving very slow, otherwise you would get far too much sway. Again, unless your driving in a straight line, i dont see how a six or seven trailer road train can turn a corner. Sorry.
#429 of 577 Re: Folks chasin fads and looks.. but what bout them that works them ones?
Jan 04, 2008 (7:18 pm)
Eyeball that front tire on that 52... notice that tire aint flat... and got that mud around it? That mud got there workin that one... it sure aint parked any now! We got us a boneyard with some ones in it now... but that 52 and a few others is still workin hard. We haul them trains field to field now... not on them twisty streets! Trouble with them forien ones is rustin and bustin. If them forien ones is lastin so long, where is all them hi-lux ones gone too? Answer that mystery now... and you will be closer too that truth on them forien ones, thats for sure. Good luck on this one now!
#430 of 577 Re: December and full-year sales [kcram]
Jan 05, 2008 (7:36 am)
kcram, good post. I've been curious of Tundra sales. I agree 100%, Toyota has been offering huge incentives to meet their 200k target. I believe they entered December at 177k units and facing month-to-month declines in sales. When I bought my Sierra there were few '07s on the lots of local dealers (I was shown 1 demo). OTOH, the local Toyota dealer I shopped a Tundra for had 26 '07s on the lot and was running display ads in the newspaper boasting $6k off the sticker. The salesman boasted he was "giving them away" and "not making a penny profit." I'm betting Toyota went ahead and produced 200k '07s, their target, despite light demand and pushed them on their dealer network with killer, give-away incentives.
Ford has a huge problem. I read their financial problems are so deep they can't afford a full redesign of the F-150 so they're just "refreshening" the interior, grill, and some other minor tweaks. Long-term that's a failed strategy.
The Tundra doesn't have to be as good as the rest of the pack, IMHO, because it's a Toyota. I know that sounds strange but I know a lot of people who only shop Toyota. A lot of friends kept impressing upon me the importance of buying a Toyota and nothing else. It isn't even an America vs. Japanese quality issue because only one suggested the Honda Ridgeline or the Nissan Titan.
I could tell them the big differences in features/price/reliability between it and the Sierra I had discovered but it didn't impact them. It's a Toyota and, by definition, it's better than the rest. Who cares if they're recalled it twice? Who cares if the interior is sub-par? Who cares if it only has 4-star crash ratings? Who cares if the offer Toyota gave me on an '07 was over $5k greater than the offer I got on a better optioned '08 Sierra? It's gotta be inherently better. It's gotta be worth the $$$ premium.
The fact is Honda is the top-rated car brand according to Consumer Reports. Toyota's actually slipping in their quality ratings.
Tundras aren't yet really competing in the work truck category from what I've seen and heard. So the fact they aren't as tough (e.g., lack a fully boxed frame) as domestic full-size trucks isn't an issue yet. The casual users who are buying it for carrying DIY home projects and hauling junk to the dump don't care. It does surprise me that the Tundra doesn't offer a more sophisticated 4x4 system so these commuters can easily switch to it in snow and heavy rain but I'm sure Toyota will fix that problem in later model years.
But the topic is asking if the Tundra will overtake the F-150 in sales just as Toyota dominates in other categories like minivans and cars. IMHO, they don't have a chance with the current design. To get volume it needs to become a fleet work truck. Toyota's bloated price makes that a difficult proposition. However, it does stand a chance of becoming a dominant fixture in the suburbs where affluent yuppies are more than happy to pay premiums for the 'prestige' of owning a Toyota.
I've owned 2 Toyotas. Fine cars. But I paid a huge premium for them. Fine in the '80s when Detroit and Europe were pumping out unreliable junkers and the reliability choice came down pretty much to Honda vs. Toyota. Cars have generally gotten more reliable plus there are more good alternatives to Toyota (and Honda) like Hyundai.
It'll be interesting to see how long Toyota can ride it's reputation. I just read a Consumer Reports' review of SUVs with 3 rows of seating. The Toyota Highlander was rated the best SUV they've ever tested. Really? If you read their review it sounds like a solid choice but hardly overwhelming. Stuff that CR used to choke on, especially when the car came from Detroit, didn't phase them like sub-par interior fit/finish/materials, the lowest crash test score of the group, so-so driving characteristics, weak child seat set-up, and cramped rear seating.
The Buick Enclave that came in a clear 2nd in that group (overall, it's the 4th ranked SUV behind an Acura in 2nd and a Honda in 3rd), while hardly perfect, seemed better in all areas except some transmission shifting issues (somewhat fixed by a software upgrade) and poor gas mileage (by 3 mpg in a group of gas hogs so who cares?).
Reliability wasn't an issue because both the Highlander and Enclave were new models and CR had no statistics so didn't consider it.
Of course, CR has been criticized - rightly so, IMHO - in having a pro-Toyota bias.
Domestic car/truck manufacturers have a long way to go in rebuilding their trashed reputations. Designing superior trucks that cost less doesn't appear to be helping them against the Tundra thus far. Over time, if they can keep producing a high-quality product maybe the 'I only buy Toyota' crowd will start to thin.
#431 of 577 Re: December and full-year sales [sknabt]
Jan 05, 2008 (10:48 am)
Excellent post, many good points. I also know some folks who just shop Honda, or just shop Toyota. Back in the 60s & 70s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything made in Japan - it was mostly cheasy junk. Then, the tide began to turn in the late 70s/early 80s when Japan went quality-oriented, while Detroit languished and rode its momentum into the ground. Then, thru the 90s and 00s you were an 'idiot' if you bought anything from Detroit. That tide is now turning also. Funny what competition does (Root hog, or die!) But, it takes awhile for folks to see it. Humans are basically herd animals, and it takes a while for a herd to undergo a change of thinking. That's happening now with the Tundra vs. Big3, and it is magnified when Japan shows its soft underbelly - a desire for profits over quality, same as Detroit. However, I think the Japanese corporate culture allows for a faster recognition and fixing of the problems. Toyota will fix the problems and design errors, pronto. It won't take decades. If Detroit lets up Toyota will turn the tables in their favor - again.
Where I disagree with you is your comment that building better trucks doesn't help the Big3. Wrong. It helps immensely. Look at total Big3 sales vs. Tundra. Tundra is a small fraction. Subtract out the "brand snobs" who only shop Toyota (50%??), and you have about 100,000 buyers who actually looked at all the offerings and still bought the Tundra. And how many of those actually work their trucks hard?
Toyota has a looooong way to go to really crack that market, but I wouldn't necessarily bet against them.
#432 of 577 Tundra works that hi-way hard... not them fields...
Jan 05, 2008 (11:18 am)
It be yuppies who buy them forien ones... then they work them ones on that hi-way ride to them office buildings and grocery stores and such. But that workin man... he buys them big3 ones, them the ones with that haul. That tundra frame and tailgate is snappin if put to work any, thats the facts on that one now! We need trucks too work that field and such, not ones that bust and rust. It's not about no trends, it's about haul. Facts is facts. Good luck on this one now!
#433 of 577 Re: Tundra works that hi-way hard... not them fields... [farmerrube]
Jan 05, 2008 (7:23 pm)
run scarred cuz yuppiies are runnin up your bumm they are cummin to get ya and youl have to buy that jap make ya dont want tah cuz it is tha best ta keep that farm going ya no . open yur back woods eyes and see its commin ats ya all!!! buy the best not the american trade mark you think is the best. facts is facts right. or i could say imho over and over again.
#434 of 577 Re: December and full-year sales [kcram]
Jan 07, 2008 (7:26 am)
Thanks for the info! I knew the figure was close for the Tundra.
#435 of 577 Re: Tundra works that hi-way hard... not them fields... [h20]
Jan 07, 2008 (7:33 am)
LOL, way to go, H20. I have had wonderfuly detailed replies to his ranting but what a suprise, no response. Looks like he should stay in dem fields and off the forums...never left the county now...using some of his own product i thinks........yeszereeee.... He like pictures of dem trucks on his farm...a relic...rustin away.
#436 of 577 Re: Tundra works that hi-way hard... not them fields... [h20]
Jan 07, 2008 (11:21 am)
You ever get that unidentifiable noise fixed on your Tundra? Ever figure out what it was?
Good luck on this one now.