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Performance Oriented Factory Tuner Automobiles

147 messages,  Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 9:15 AM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Cadillac CTS-V, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, BMW M3, Acura TL, Audi S4, Audi S6, Mercedes-Benz C36 AMG, Lexus IS-F, Audi R8, Coupe, Convertible, Sedan

#6 of 147 louiswei by rockylee Nov 30, 2006 (8:36 am)
My biggest concern for y'all MKZ band wagoners is that have y'all actually went out and try the other competitors like the 3er, IS, G and TL? If you have and still think that the MKZ is an worthy competitor in this class then we certainly welcome that inputs. However, the argument that the MKZ is the most nimble Lincoln currently available does not sit well with most of us.   Well thats part of the problem. Just because some of y'all don't think the MKZ belongs in the entry-level luxury performance segment y'all went out of your way to band it from the board.   I brought up the Cadillac CTS-V as a BMW 335i competitor and gave a argument for it and y'all found every excuse in the world to not have it allowed on the forum also.   What I'm coming up with is some of y'all will find a reason/excuse for any vehical that rivals or exceeds a BMW's performance and/or luxury and ban it from the forum.   That's fine. If you want to have a forum with all like minded "BMW Lovers" only people then I suppose you succeeded. Y'all only allow competition when it's clear the BMW trumps it. Wow, that sounds like fun. It's like playing poker and stacking the deck. I and other posters aren't afraid of a good debate.   Happy Posting   Rocky Replies to this message: louiswei (Nov 30, 2006 9:17 am) rockylee (Nov 30, 2006 10:12 am)
#7 of 147 Is the Audi A4 a performance sedan ? by rockylee Nov 30, 2006 (8:53 am)
I saw some think it is a entry-lux performance sedan. If the A4 is a entry-lux level performance sedan, then a MKZ, is clearly also. The S4, IMHO is a entry-lux performance sedan but at over $50K it is expensive. If people don't consider it as such then Audi, really doesn't offer anything in the segment. Is the VW Passat, a entry-level lux sedan ? Well it has enough power and has luxurious enough interior IMHO to be considered. It will smoke a Audi A4, in a race and is one of the most solid cars on the road today that isn't ultra-expensive either.   So the question remains is both the Volkswagon Passat, and Audi A4, performance oriented luxury sedans ?   I say YES at least to the Passat. I'm undecided on the Audi A4   Rocky
#8 of 147 Re: louiswei [rockylee] by louiswei Nov 30, 2006 (9:17 am)
Replying to: rockylee (Nov 30, 2006 8:36 am) Rocky, I am going to lay it out for you this one last time and if you still don't get it, then so be it. I am not afraid of a good debate, I am just sick and tired of a debate that goes nowhere.   1. The Entry Lux Performance Sedan board is not a "BMW Lovers" board. Me myself is not a "BMW Lover". Although it's hard for you to believe according to my posts the last couple days but if you see my debates with blueguydotcom earlier this year you'll believe me. Also, if I am a "BMW Lover" like you stated why would I go for a IS350 instead of the 330i. Makes no sense, right?   2. The reasons why MOST OF US think that the CTS-V and MKZ don't belong in the other board are DIFFERENT. MKZ failed to qualify because it does not meet the performance part of the requirement. No one would deny that the Lincoln offers plenty of standard and optional luxury but it is NOT a performance sedan. Is it faster than most other 4 doors on the road? Yes. But is it a performance-oriented sedan? NO. The ES350 does not make the list due to the same reason. However, if you want to debate which one is better between the MKZ and ES350 I'd love to do so.   3. CTS-V failed to qualify because it is a factory-tuned special model based on its entry level sedan. Same reason why the M, AMG and Audi's S and RS are not qualified as well. Of course, it'll be unfair to Cadillac if we include the M, AMG, S and RS but not the -V. However, we agreed that all the special models listed above should not be included in the list so in no way we are discriminating against the CTS-V. Also, you can make a case that the loaded 335i cost almost as much as the CTS-V but the BOTTOM LINE is that if someone besides YOU wants a base 335i, he/she can have it for under $40K. On the other hand, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a CTS-V for under $50K.   4. Employee discount is totally irrelavent in a discussion. Since you work for GM you'll be able to get a GM car for less. Same applies for someone works for BMW and Toyota. He or she will be able to get into a 335i or IS350 for less than you and me. Since you want to compare cars fair and square then let's make it as equal as possible. Bring in the GM employee discount into discussion can only damage your credibility and show your bias toward GM.   5. Members in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance. I will use the IS350 example to back up my statement. When the IS was introduced late last year it was consider the straight line performance benchmark of the class. It totally destroyed the then 330i in the 0-60 times (sounds familiar? Hint: CTS-V). However, as you can see from top of the other board, the IS350 was still listed as one of the cars on the list. Even though many members have issues with IS's "relatively" soft suspension and the unavailability of a manual tranny but that's subjective to debates. The bottom line is we in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance.   Hope that'll clear things out a bit for you. Replies to this message: rockylee (Nov 30, 2006 10:12 am)
#9 of 147 Re: louiswei [louiswei] by rockylee Nov 30, 2006 (10:12 am)
Replying to: louiswei (Nov 30, 2006 9:17 am) Rocky, I am going to lay it out for you this one last time and if you still don't get it, then so be it. I am not afraid of a good debate, I am just sick and tired of a debate that goes nowhere.   Okay, fair enough.   1. The Entry Lux Performance Sedan board is not a "BMW Lovers" board. Me myself is not a "BMW Lover". Although it's hard for you to believe according to my posts the last couple days but if you see my debates with blueguydotcom earlier this year you'll believe me. Also, if I am a "BMW Lover" like you stated why would I go for a IS350 instead of the 330i. Makes no sense, right?   I don't know ?....Perhaps you got a deal you couldn't refuse on the IS 350 ?....Perhaps you wanted a little gadgetology to go along with straightline performance ???.....blueguydotcom, from what I gather is a true blue BMW lover. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.   2. The reasons why MOST OF US think that the CTS-V and MKZ don't belong in the other board are DIFFERENT. MKZ failed to qualify because it does not meet the performance part of the requirement. No one would deny that the Lincoln offers plenty of standard and optional luxury but it is NOT a performance sedan. Is it faster than most other 4 doors on the road? Yes. But is it a performance-oriented sedan? NO. The ES350 does not make the list due to the same reason. However, if you want to debate which one is better between the MKZ and ES350 I'd love to do so.   It fails to meet the performance part ? It will nose out a Acura TL, Audi A4, in acceleration. I'd love to debate the ES350 vs. MKZ, anytime.   3. CTS-V failed to qualify because it is a factory-tuned special model based on its entry level sedan.   What in the hell do you call the BMW 335i ? It is nothing more than a factory-tuned BMW 330i or 328i. I honestly can't see the difference. It has to have a M or V label to be considered factory tuned. That's a bunch of B.S. IMHO louiswei.   Same reason why the M, AMG and Audi's S and RS are not qualified as well. Of course, it'll be unfair to Cadillac if we include the M, AMG, S and RS but not the -V. However, we agreed that all the special models listed above should not be included in the list so in no way we are discriminating against the CTS-V. Also, you can make a case that the loaded 335i cost almost as much as the CTS-V but the BOTTOM LINE is that if someone besides YOU wants a base 335i, he/she can have it for under $40K. On the other hand, it is NOT POSSIBLE to get a CTS-V for under $50K.   Okay, but it's like cheating because BMW, is a "options" company. Most car company's would be looked down upon if they did this type of buisness. Acura, offers like two trim packages for each model to keep it simple. This is the direction GM, is headed but not quite as severe as Acura.   Question: Does the Acura TL Type-S qualify for the forum ? -I've seen plenty of people talk about this car as a player on the forum.   4. Employee discount is totally irrelavent in a discussion. Since you work for GM you'll be able to get a GM car for less. Same applies for someone works for BMW and Toyota. He or she will be able to get into a 335i or IS350 for less than you and me. Since you want to compare cars fair and square then let's make it as equal as possible. Bring in the GM employee discount into discussion can only damage your credibility and show your bias toward GM.   I DON'T work for General Motors or ever have. My family does work for GM, but as a former owner of a 2005' Acura TL, that should prove I am not as biased as you think.   5. Members in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance. I will use the IS350 example to back up my statement. When the IS was introduced late last year it was consider the straight line performance benchmark of the class. It totally destroyed the then 330i in the 0-60 times (sounds familiar? Hint: CTS-V). However, as you can see from top of the other board, the IS350 was still listed as one of the cars on the list. Even though many members have issues with IS's "relatively" soft suspension and the unavailability of a manual tranny but that's subjective to debates. The bottom line is we in the Entry Lux Performance Sedan board do not ban cars that exceed a BMW's performance.    Hope that'll clear things out a bit for you.   Well like I said and I'm still convinced y'all in that board have set the guidlines in a way that limits conversation of other vehicals. That is why I started this forum so we can talk about more than 335i, G35, IS350, because those are the only true players in y'alls strict guidelines. Everything else isn't worth a hoot even mentioning.   I hope you see where myself and others are coming from and understand why some of us were frusterated with the entry-level luxury performance forum.   Rocky   P.S. Stop by anytime.
#10 of 147 2007 Acura TL Type-S by rockylee Nov 30, 2006 (12:38 pm)
Although I am a hard-core Acura/Honda fan and I love the current gen TL but I am having a hard time to digest that Acura is charging over $38K for a FWD, sub 300 HP car.    $36K sounds like the ideal price for me.    What do y'all think? Am I the only one to have issue with it?   Not to be a jerk, but I thought factory high-performance tuned cars weren't allowed in the entry-level luxury performance sedan forum ????   As to your question louiswei, I owned a 2005' Acura TL Anthracite, 6-speed manual, Navi, Summer Tires. The MSRP was $36K and change. I paid $33K. I thought at the time it was the best deal on the market because of the technology offered in the car. The Lexus IS 350, I was looking at was $47K with pre-collision, and sport suspension pkg. I was going to settle for a non-sport suspension pkg. IS 350 if my memory serves me correctly it was like $2-3K cheaper so I'd still be at $44-45K.   I loved the design of the IS 350 but having one kid in a car seat and another one on the way I decided to get the roomier Acura TL. The Texas, Lexus dealers wouldn't budge off the MSRP. I think my best offer was $1K off MSRP but of course this car was brand new to the market and I would of had to wait for them to get the color Black with tan leather interior in. I also started figuring it up and the TL, made dollars and sense for me because I could get it for about $12K less. So is the TL-Type-S FWD er over-priced IMHO ? I'd say NO ! You get alot of car for your money and I'd be willing to bet you could knock $3-4K off MSRP. I'm not sure what current Lexus dealers are knocking off on MSRP but I'd be willing to bet it won't be as much as the acura dealers.   If you are a big Acura TL, fan then why not wait another 2 years for the rumored SH-AWD TL with over 300hp ? I hear some people throwing around 330hp. for the next TL. If something around that number becomes true the TL, could be a benchmark car. I know I will be drooling over it if they don't ruin that Alfa design they have working for them now.   Just my $0.02   Rocky Replies to this message: pat (Nov 30, 2006 12:41 pm) flash11 (Nov 30, 2006 7:56 pm) pat (Dec 01, 2006 4:40 am) louiswei (Dec 01, 2006 5:19 am) and 4 more...
#11 of 147 Re: 2007 Acura TL Type-S [rockylee] by pat HOST Nov 30, 2006 (12:41 pm)
Replying to: rockylee (Nov 30, 2006 12:38 pm) Hey Rocky - let's drop the arguing about what vehicles are and are not included in the other discussion, okay? We don't need to be doing that anymore. Thanks! Replies to this message: flash11 (Nov 30, 2006 7:56 pm) pat (Dec 01, 2006 4:40 am) louiswei (Dec 01, 2006 5:19 am) robbieg (Dec 01, 2006 7:19 am) and 2 more... rockylee (Dec 01, 2006 4:24 pm)
#12 of 147 Re: 2007 Acura TL Type-S [pat] by flash11 Nov 30, 2006 (7:56 pm)
Replying to: pat (Nov 30, 2006 12:41 pm) Wow Rocky, you just had your knuckles wrapped by the host for stating the truth. We are in no way breaking any rules unless you are making them up as you go along. As soon as something came close to the BMW 3er ooowww that is bad..lets ban them before the truth gets out. They can't stand the competition. The whole purpose of this forum is to create a new niche, one that includes sensible discussion about Premium class sedans with performance (how does that sound?). louiswei, to correct you the reason the MKZ was banned from the lux-perf.sedan forum was because it did not have a manual shift option-an option the IS 350 you stated did not have yet it was allowed to stay, why is that ? Hypocrisy that is why. My argument was that the MKZ has the luxury (see Lincoln website MKZ interior/exterior images), the perforamance-263hp,and suspension to handle tight curves at high speeds,nice options for a good price, and most of all, they are affordable !! You can actually bargain for one and not feel the salesman is looking down at you condescendingly. Thanks Rocky. During the Christmas holidays I will take my wife out to the car mall and we will do a little comparison shopping BMW,MB,of course Lincoln MKZ he he, Acura TL-S,Infiniti G35,Volvo S60R, Caddy CTS etc. We will come back again to this forum and my wife can add her 0.02 cents. Can you do me a big favor ? Post an interior/exterior image of the MKZ vs. the BMW 335i, I think a pic would tell a lot, add the price at the bottom of each Replies to this message: pat (Dec 01, 2006 4:40 am) louiswei (Dec 01, 2006 5:19 am) robbieg (Dec 01, 2006 7:19 am) kywildcat (Dec 04, 2007 10:30 pm) and 1 more... rockylee (Dec 01, 2006 4:24 pm)
#13 of 147 Re: 2007 Acura TL Type-S [flash11] by pat HOST Dec 01, 2006 (4:40 am)
Replying to: flash11 (Nov 30, 2006 7:56 pm) I'm not "rapping knuckles" for heaven's sake, or at least I didn't mean to sound like that. You can talk about the vehicles you want here, but you still have to go along with the policies of the Forums. Criticizing other members, discussions, etc., isn't part of an actual vehicle debate.   It no longer matters what vehicles are "allowed" or not in the other discussion because you can talk about all of them here.   Sorry for any misunderstanding. Please email me if you want to continue this conversation.
#14 of 147 Re: 2007 Acura TL Type-S [flash11] by louiswei Dec 01, 2006 (5:19 am)
Replying to: flash11 (Nov 30, 2006 7:56 pm) flash11, I would love to track race you with My IS350 against your beloved MKZ. Since both cars are automatic so the competition should be fair. Feel free to name the track, drag strip, road track, I don't care (prefer in FL though ).   Wanna compare interiors...why pick on the 335i since we all know (except blueguydotcom) that it's interior is not top notch in the class. Where the 335i truly shines is in the performance department.   MKZ:   IS350:   G35:   TL:   335i: Replies to this message: robbieg (Dec 01, 2006 7:19 am) kywildcat (Dec 04, 2007 10:30 pm) pat (Dec 05, 2007 1:40 am) rockylee (Dec 01, 2006 4:24 pm)
#15 of 147 Re: 2007 Acura TL Type-S [louiswei] by robbieg Dec 01, 2006 (7:19 am)
Replying to: louiswei (Dec 01, 2006 5:19 am) In order, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, BMW and Lincoln. For some reason, the Lincoln doesn't do anything for me. It's interior is too angular. I just don't like the center of the dash, nor do I like how the dash appears square as opposed to being rounded like all of the others. Also, the gear shift looks cheap. Also, Infiniti has significantly improved the interior of the G35. Hopefully, Cadillac will make a similar improvement to the CTS. Lastly, where is the picture of the Audi, which in my opinion is the class leader. Replies to this message: kywildcat (Dec 04, 2007 10:30 pm) pat (Dec 05, 2007 1:40 am)

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