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Automotive News & Views Can GM make Cadillac the standard of the world Again?
6098 messages, Last post on Aug 14, 2009 at 4:43 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: louiswei (Jan 04, 2008 3:25 pm)
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Jan 04, 2008 4:40 pm) |
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Replying to: mr215 (Jan 07, 2008 6:05 am)
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Replying to: mr215 (Jan 07, 2008 6:05 am) We don't "need" Cadillacs, period. We don't need BMW's, Mercedes, or Porsches for that matter. All of these vehicles offer absolutely nothing over a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord in terms of utility. They are purchased because the buyer has certain "desires", not because the Accord or Camry don't satisy their basic "need" for reliable transportation. Rare is the company that can succeed by telling the customer that "you don't need 'X', so take 'Y' and be happy with it". If YOU are more inclined to buy a Cadillac because they have gone green and stop offering V8's, that is certainly your perogative. But I agree with lemco on this one. Acura has never had a competitive flagship to take on the BMW 550i or Mercedes E550 in part due to the lack of a V8 (and, IMO, lack of RWD platforms). If Cadillac wants to compete with Honda or Toyota, perhaps a V6 will suffice, but I don't think they will be competitive in the performance sedan market. Even BMW, with their excellent 535i, has not announced plans to abandon the 550i. |
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If the Volt electric drive system with the new battery technology works out, then what GM should be moving to is motor generator electric drive power train. So the performance would be depend on the electric drive. The motor generator would only need to be used to keep the battery charged, although the Volt concept is that the battery will provide about 40 miles of charge so that the day to day use would come off the power grid rather than the motor generator. The point is that with an all new technology for the drive train the old idea's of what makes a luxury car will have to change somewhat. |
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Replying to: habitat1 (Jan 07, 2008 7:10 am) I also agree with pretty much everything you say but do no wait for BMW to announce dropping the V8 in the near term. They will continue to pay gaz guzzler taxes until the tax is so high actual buyers refuse to pay it. BMW will just pay the penalties as long as consumers support them. When will this happen? Well if everything stayed the same (gas prices, economy, regulations, etc.) it will probably be at least 5-10 years. And of course the V8 penetration would go down during that time. If gas doubles (I doubt it) it will go away faster, if gas remains the same (most likely scenario) then V8 will be around til the regs cut it off. DETROIT – The big, powerful V-8 engines that have been a mainstay of Cadillac's big sedans since the late 1930s are fading away, victims of the move to fuel efficiency. Cadillac's trademark V-8 engine will give way to smaller high-tech V-6s – and possibly some diesel engines – in Cadillac's cars. In an interview with Automotive News, Cadillac General Manager Jim Taylor said last week that Cadillac is considering a 2.9-liter turbocharged V-6 diesel for its mainstream U.S. sedans. Taylor's revelation came in the wake of General Motors' announcement last week that it has dropped plans to replace the Northstar V-8, which goes out of production in 2010. The Northstar has powered Cadillacs since 1993. It's all part of the new world of high fuel prices, rising fuel economy standards and pressure to reduce emissions. "On Dec. 19, the world changed," Taylor said. That's when President Bush signed a law mandating a 40 percent fuel-economy improvement by 2020. In the future, Cadillac's mainstream sedans probably won't offer V-8 engines, Taylor said. Instead, the CTS and the successor to the STS and DTS will be powered by the 3.6-liter direct-injected V-6 that went on sale in 2007. In 2009, the new 2.9-liter diesel goes into production for Cadillac's CTS to be sold in Europe. Cadillac also could use that engine in U.S. models, Taylor said. After 2010, Cadillac could use a pushrod V-8 in its Escalade SUV and also in niche vehicles like the CTS-V and XLR roadster. Marketers once considered a V-8 engine an essential selling tool for the luxury market. But in a world of $100-per-barrel oil, those days may be gone. Lincoln, for example, does not offer a V-8 in its MKS sedan. And the percentage of Cadillac buyers who want a V-8 is declining. Only 10 to 15 percent of Cadillac buyers insist on a V-8, while the others choose the V-6 powertrain. "You have such a narrow gap now in terms of performance ... that smart consumers are saying, 'I don't need it,' " Taylor says. Dealers appear to accept Cadillac's decision to reduce the size of its engines. At Moore Cadillac in Richmond, Va., two-thirds of buyers choose a V-6. They feel they get better fuel economy while achieving near-equal performance, says owner Jacques Moore. "The V-6 is adequate today for virtually all of Cadillac's sedan fleet," Moore says. While the V-6 gasoline engine enjoys wide acceptance, a diesel-powered Cadillac might prove risky – at least in marketing terms. In the early 1980s, Cadillac had a brief, disastrous experience selling diesel-powered cars, with powerplants hastily modified from gasoline engines. But that was then. Today, Mercedes sells a diesel version of its E-class sedan in the United States, and BMW plans to introduce diesels here. Cadillac's compact 60-degree European diesel, made in Italy by VM Motori, would be competitive. The engine will generate 250 hp and 406 pounds-feet of torque – performance comparable to a V-8. While Cadillac could accommodate a diesel in its U.S. fleet, Taylor says it probably would remain a niche product. "As long as BMW and Mercedes are going to have (diesel engines) and market them, those guys will lead the charge," Taylor notes. In the future, hybrid powertrains may replace V-8 engines as a mark of prestige, Taylor says. This summer, Cadillac dealers get the Escalade hybrid. GM has not announced pricing, but a fully loaded Escalade now sells at about $67,000. Asked whether customers would pay $70,000 for a hybrid Escalade, Taylor says yes. Someday, hybrid powertrains might become the new V-8, he says. "The world changed with the signing of the new fuel economy bill," Taylor says. "That's the new world." |
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Replying to: lemko (Jan 07, 2008 6:14 am) |
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Replying to: habitat1 (Jan 07, 2008 7:10 am) Rare is the company that can succeed by telling the customer that "you don't need 'X', so take 'Y' and be happy with it". You are angry and confrontational for reasons I cant discern at this time. Not sure why you are getting so bent out of shape because I am not one of these people who says we should shame anyone who owns an SUV or luxury sedan. That said, the rules have been changed and there is nothing we can do about it. From an image and CAFE standpoint V8s are going to get less popular. Not sure why you or anyone else wouldn't think this is coming after the law was signed. I see you made no mention of how small V8 sales are in European sedans. You say that no V8 in the CTS and STS (remember CTS-V will have V8) means Cadillac is trying to compete with Toyota and HOnda (funny) but the fact of the matter is 80% or 90% of sedans that offer a V8 are sold with a V6. This has been the case with the STS even though until the 2008 model year the V6 made only 255hp. Now that it has 302hp you can rest assured the V8 will be even less popular. BMW made its own V8 obsolete when it put the 300hp I-6 in the 535. The 535 is just as fast as the old 545i and barely slower than the 550i. BTW, lets not confuse Acura with cadillac. Cadillac has a RWD chassis with near 50/50 weight distribution and develops cars on the Ring. Acura does neither. A powerful RWD sports sedan with a six cylinder engine will sell as evidenced by the 3 series, G35 and new CTS. The DTS comes standard with a 275hp V8 right now so I dont see how its replacement will be at a disadvantage with a standard 304hp V6. I wish things werent this way but I'm glad GM is being proactive instead of investing millions in a small volume V8 that would only hurt their CAFE numbers in the long run.
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Replying to: mr215 (Jan 07, 2008 5:57 am) You are right. The ES is their biggest seller Wrong, the RX is their biggest seller so see above. By the way, what Cadillac product have the youngest owner age? I would bet it's the CTS and maybe the Escalade. But according to the JP Power data we can see that even with the new 2008 CTS, Caddy is not attracting many owners under the age of 40.
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Replying to: mr215 (Jan 07, 2008 8:53 am) The fact that 80%-90% of sedans are sold with a I6/V6 can also be misconstrued. BMW sells 85%+ of its 5-series with an automatic transmission. But their image as being king of the hill in the sport sedan segment almost mandates that they cater to the enthusiast minority, many of whom require a manual transmission. A decision by BMW to drop the manual transmission would, again IMO, have an impact beyond the 15% that actually buy a manual. On the side note of confusing Acura with Cadillac, I have been unbashful in my criticism of Acura in other forums for not using its engineering prowess and Formula One expereince/success more to its advantage. This in spite of having a 2004 TL 6-speed and 2005 MDX in our garage. Nevertheless, let's not confuse a RWD platform, 50/50 weight balance, and a marketing show at "The Ring" with world class driving dynamics. Acura may be guilty of conservative underachievement (with the exception of the Honda S2000), but Cadillac is no BMW when it comes to driving dynamics. I do agree with your point that the new fuel efficiency / CAFE requirements are going to result in some changes in both attitudes and model offerings. I myself am looking forward to my first drive in a BMW 535d. My marketing director has a E320 Bluetech and routinely gets in the high 30's MPG at 75 mph on the highway. She claims to have never gotten worse than 24 for a tank in mostly city driving. The high performance diesels, in my opinion, are likely to be the big victors in this battle to achieve better fuel efficiency.
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