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Automotive News & Views Can GM make Cadillac the standard of the world Again?
5919 messages, Last post on Apr 10, 2009 at 2:31 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: sls002 (Nov 12, 2007 9:38 am) = = = While I agree with statements 1 & 2, I disagree with #3. If Caddy does build something unique & American, I think that they CAN sell it. Particularly if the Price is Right. Even if expensive. I look to Chevy. The Corvette ( full disclosure here: I drive a 2007 Coupe ) is rather expensive, compared to most other Chevys. Yet they sell in volumes that allow GM to 1) make a profit & 2) make a GM ‘flagship’. The XLR sells in very low volumes, true enough. Yet sharing parts & platform with the Corvette allows the XLR to survive. And the XLR-v. ( And I applaud Caddy for investing the time & $$s in all the ‘v-series’ cars. ) I happen to disagree with a couple of aspects of Caddy’s approach \ direction in all but the CTS-v, however. My sense is that the ( very expensive ) STS-v and XLR-v are priced largely according to the very sophisticated and expensive powerplants under their hoods. STS-v for 2008 = approx. $76K and the XLR-v is over $97K. My opinion is that both the STS-v and the XLR-v could have been equipped with a larger, normally aspirated, simpler & cheaper motor – and would have sold much better. If they had been equipped with ( for example ) the 6.2L V8, from the 2008 Corvette – or even the 400 HP 6.0L V8 ( with 400\400 HP\TQ ) instead of the supercharged NorthStar, they would likely have had very similar acceleration and been a whole lot less expensive to develop & to produce. And to sell. That would clearly have been a large ‘step up’ from the NorthStar – at 320 \ 315 HP\TQ, and now offering barely improved acceleration compared to the new 300+ HP DI V6 available in the 2008 STS. The XLR-v, with the s/c NorthStar posts almost identical acceleration numbers to my 2007 Corvette w/automatic. (The automatic trans. is essentially identical in both cars.) For nearly $100 Grand. Though this lovely ( and expensive ) 4.4L s/c motor makes more HP and marginally more TQ than the 6.0L V8 in the Corvette, they are so close in acceleration largely due to the XLR-v’s much greater weight – 3800#+ vs the Corvette at close to 3200#. The STS-v with 469 HP and 439 TQ is a 13.2 second sedan, according to R&T’s test. I’d bet that with the current Corvette’s 430 HP & 424 TQ would be capable of a mid- to high 13 second quarter. And would feel ‘just as quick’ and \ or ‘just as fast’ to 90+% of potential buyers. And it might very well also even feel ‘more American’ than the s/c NorthStar. And these cars could then have been marketed at something like a ( clearly, I am guessing here ) $10K or more ‘discount’, compared to those ‘-v’ cars actual MSRPs. I think an STS-v at closer to $63K or $64K would have been much more likely to develop into a sales success for Caddy. At almost $75K to start, the STS-v pricing makes for difficult volume sales – even for a Caddy. Note that $63K - $64K qualifies as “very expensive”, to me. But I believe that Caddy ** COULD ** sell the STS-v in significantly higher volumes at this MSRP \ Price Point. Said another way, if GM had decided to ‘pull ahead’ development of the 6.2L V8, instead of developing that s/c & hand-built version of the NorthStar, and plug the n/a 6.2L V8 into the STS-v at launch – and the Corvette a year later, perhaps – this would have been far better received. And would have sold better. Again, I mean no disrespect to the NorthStar motor. GM’s continued development of “regular” V8s strongly suggests to me that this would have been a better, as well as cheaper, route to an STS-v and an XLR-v. And partly here again I am considering that “different, but American” aspect. And I suspect that the 6.2L V8 is actually cheaper to produce than the base, 4.6L n/a NorthStar V8 – whereas the s/c NorthStar is clearly MUCH more expensive. Thus, an STS-v with the 6.2L V8 and 1SG level of equipment, plus a few unique touches, could probably be sold at a very modest ‘markup’ over a ‘regular’, NorthStar 1SG. Currently priced at roughly $61K MSRP. The same would apply to the XLR-v. And I will reiterate here that I would really, REALLY like to see Caddy succeed – and establish itself as a top tier Luxury Sports Brand. The 2008 CTS appears to be a large step in the right direction, though we’ll see where sales are after 6 to 9 months or a year on the market. Just my 0.02 gallons worth . . . I could be wrong. Cheers, - Ray Considering the Corvette, with top option group, to be nearly as much a luxury GT car as the XLR, for much less money and featuring better acceleration ( highly American ) to boot . . .
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Nov 12, 2007 11:17 am) |
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Replying to: rayainsw (Nov 12, 2007 11:30 am) However, putting the pushrod engines in the higher end Cadillac's to make V-series performance sedans is not what the market wants - it may be what you want, but you should buy the Pontiac G8. The true luxury performance sedan market is expecting refinement more like the AMG Mercedes models - the 6.2 liter V8.
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Nov 12, 2007 11:17 am) The truth of the matter is, you are not going to bring a current BMW or Mercedes owner over to Cadillac. Those people have drunk the Germans kool-aid, and aren't gonna change. Unless their portfolios tank. The people you CAN influence are the ones who are moving up from mass market cars, who maybe cannot afford a Bimmer or Benz, or lux buyers from other brands with less pedigree. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, SAAB(throwing that in for Rocky, even though they don't really belong).
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Replying to: volvomax (Nov 12, 2007 1:14 pm)  As far as Saab, goes they are getting better but would agree their is work that still needs to be done.  I assume by the end of this decade Saab, will be completely overhauled or nearly overhauled. -Rocky
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Replying to: volvomax (Nov 12, 2007 1:14 pm)  ). However, I'll admit that it'll probably be harder for the loyal German owners to switch since they have been under German kool-aid poisoning for a long time. It'll be much easier for the younger buyers with less experience to consider Caddy because they simply have less to compare to. That's why I think the most important thing Caddy needs right now is a successful entry level program that can rival BMW's 3-series. Get them while they are young and dont let go.
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Replying to: rockylee (Nov 12, 2007 1:35 pm) Oh puh-leez. Yes, Cadillac may be more reliable, yes it is certainly cheaper. But, you have ALOT to learn about what motivates,or de-motiavtes car buyers. Esp luxury ones. Lux cars are bough primarily on image and cachet. Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.
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Replying to: volvomax (Nov 12, 2007 3:34 pm) Well not on the entry-level (CTS) and on the Truck/SUV (Escalade) Still even to this day people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of ..........! -Rocky
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I had my Seville STS at the Cadillac dealer for an oil change this morning. The CTS is RED HOT! They only had one left and it was a demo. They sold out of them over the weekend. The interior of the CTS alone is worth the price of admission. I don't think I've seen that nice an interior in a Cadillac since the early 1960s. It puts the other cars in Cadillac's stable to shame. Once Cadillac works a little of that CTS magic into the rest of the line-up, it's really going to take off! I was eyeing up a leftover black 2007 DTS Performance, but I didn't give in to temptation. |
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Replying to: rockylee (Nov 12, 2007 4:42 pm) I always said that the LS 600hL is the Cadillac of Lexus.
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