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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Camry Hybrid, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Honda Civic, Hybrid Cars

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#375 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [gagrice] by kdhspyder Jul 29, 2007 (6:51 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2007 3:35 pm) The breakdown I'd guess is a closely guarded secret. I've never seen such a figure.   the 'premium' subject keeps going round and round and it will never be resolved because there really is one but it's not $5700 for the hybrid.   The premium for the hybrid is $15000 ..over a 5 y.o. CE. Ridiculous you say. Ok so too then is comparing a base model CE to a TCH. The real premium for a TCH is actually $15000 because for basic transportation that's all you need to spend ~ $10000.
#376 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [gagrice] by larsb Jul 30, 2007 (5:57 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2007 3:35 pm) One question:   In all your years of car buying, have you EVER heard of anyone in the car selling or car buying business calling the extra money required to move up from a low-end 4-cyl to a V6 a "V6 premium?"   Ever?   No, I didn't think so.   So then why is moving up to a hybrid from a low-end v4 now supposed to be called a "hybrid premium?"   You see how nonsensical the term is?   You pay more for the hybrid version of the car because it's a better-equipped car, just the same as you pay more for a V6 because it's a more expensive to manufacture, better-equipped car for a higher price.   There is nothing called a "Leather Premium." There is nothing called a "Navigation Premium." There is nothing called a "V6 Premium." There is nothing called a "Alloy Wheel." So there should be nothing called a "Hybrid Premium." Replies to this message: talmy1 (Jul 30, 2007 6:21 am) larsb (Jul 30, 2007 6:31 am) talmy1 (Jul 30, 2007 7:32 am)
#377 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [larsb] by talmy1 Jul 30, 2007 (6:21 am)
Replying to: larsb (Jul 30, 2007 5:57 am) You are right, it doesn't fit any definition of "premium", except to imply being ripped off (if the added cost was not justified by the feature itself. But, at least around here there is a premium in that the dealers will discount the ICE Camrys much more than a hybrid Camry, so the dealer gets a premium, but it isn't $4000!   How about if we call it the "hybrid charge"? As to what it actually is, well that's a problem since the hybrid drive train isn't a separate line item on the price list. What exactly is one comparing to, then? So some people could say how little the charge is by comparing to a V6 XLE, and somebody else could say it's $30,000 for a typical TAH over a city bus pass. Replies to this message: larsb (Jul 30, 2007 6:31 am) talmy1 (Jul 30, 2007 7:32 am)
#378 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [talmy1] by larsb Jul 30, 2007 (6:31 am)
Replying to: talmy1 (Jul 30, 2007 6:21 am) As far as what to call it, why don't we just start calling it now what it will be called in the car business within 5-7 years:   The hybrid option.   And as far as comparing prices regarding car versus car, the most logical way (which the hybrid naysayers refuse to agree with ) is to compare "similarly equipped cars" to determine how much the hybrid option really costs. And it's really on a buyer-by-buyer basis.   Someone shopping for a base CE is not likely going to be shopping also for a base TCH. Most people I know shop for cars based on the price they can pay or the monthly installment they can afford - not by the equipment on the various model lines of a car.   Someone might shop with a certain FEATURE in mind that they want to have on the car, i.e. leather/NAV/backup camera, but they need to know at the start that those options raise the price of the car.   If you are shopping for a Camry, you just must realize that better-equipped models, as you move up the line, COST MORE money. Replies to this message: talmy1 (Jul 30, 2007 7:32 am)
#379 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [larsb] by talmy1 Jul 30, 2007 (7:32 am)
Replying to: larsb (Jul 30, 2007 6:31 am) "Similarly equipped cars" -- there's the problem. Buyer-by-buyer basis is true to a point, but lets try to look at it objectively.   What could be a single model, Camry, with a list of options, has been stratified into CE, LE, XLE, Hybrid, and, I will ignore here, SE models. And the available options are set to encourage higher models (the CE is a bargain compared the the LE, but has very limited list of options). The 2008 Hybrid is almost an LE, except the Hybrid has automatic climate control which is otherwise only available, and standard, on the XLE. The 2007 Hybrid is almost an XLE, except the XLE has reclining rear seats and fake wood trim. And for the comparison should one use 4 cylinder ICE + automatic transmission or the V6?   This is not meant to be a criticism of Toyota, because all manufactures use this confusing scheme.
#380 of 567 Re: completely odd logic [gagrice] by stevedebi Jul 30, 2007 (12:07 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2007 3:35 pm) "I was only agreeing with moparbad on this one. If a person wants a basic CE Camry that gets the added MPG of the hybrid they will pay a $5700 premium. That is according to your price schedule."   I think there is another factor that people are not seeing here. The hybrid premium is known only to Toyota (exactly how much the hybridization costs). Trying to do basic subtraction isn't correct unless we know the actual profit received from each of the options tacked on the TCH.   Every option that is added to a vehicle represents profit to the manufacturer. This is why the TCH is only provided with lots of options, and why Toyota tends to build "loaded" TCHs. The added profit from the options is offsetting the cost of the HSD. Toyota would have to charge a lot more for a "vanilla" hybrid Camry if they simply offered it as an option - and that would raise eyebrows for those who are looking at the true "cost" of hybridization.   However, I don't think Toyota would that - they would subsidize the cost of the hybrid components, as they did for years on the Prius. So it is far more profitable to do it the way the TCH is now produced - loaded.
#381 of 567 $5250 expected premium for hybrid by moparbad Jul 30, 2007 (1:18 pm)
-from JD Power “High gas prices, coupled with consumers becoming more familiar with alternative powertrain technology, are definitely increasing consumer interest in hybrids and flexible fuels,” said Mike Marshall, director of automotive emerging technologies at J.D. Power and Associates. “However, the additional price premiums associated with hybrid vehicles, which can run from $3,000 to $10,000 more than a comparable non-hybrid vehicle, remain the biggest concern among consumers considering a hybrid. The AEI highlights several non-hybrid models available that help consumers reduce fuel use and emissions.”   Consumers Interested in Hybrids and Flexible Fuel Vehicles The study, which examines consumer perceptions regarding hybrids, diesel and flexible fuel vehicles, finds that fewer than one-fourth (23%) of consumers say they will only consider a gasoline-powered model for their next new vehicle. Among consumers who expect to acquire a new vehicle within the next two years, 57 percent indicate that they are considering a hybrid vehicle, while 49 percent are considering a flexible fuel (E85 ethanol-based fuel blend) vehicle and 12 percent a diesel.   On average, consumers considering a hybrid expect to pay approximately $5,250 more for the powertrain option. Acknowledging the increased vehicle price, these consumers expect an average fuel economy improvement of 28 miles per gallon compared to a similar vehicle powered by a gasoline internal combustion engine, when in reality, hybrid owners report getting an average improvement of just 9 mpg. Consumers considering a diesel expect to pay approximately $2,800 more for the option and expect an average fuel economy improvement of 21 mpg, while diesel owners report getting a 12 mpg improvement on average. Those considering an E85 vehicle are unsure whether to expect to pay more for the option or see an improvement in fuel economy, but instead hope the use of the ethanol-based fuel blend will help reduce U.S. dependency on foreign fuels. The availability of fuel or fueling stations is the largest concern among consumers considering a flexible fuel or diesel-powered vehicle.   “One of the biggest challenges for alternative powertrains is that consumers often have unrealistic expectations for the fuel-saving abilities of these vehicles,” Marshall said. “And particularly with hybrids, actual fuel performance often doesn’t live up to the vehicle’s EPA estimate. There is a real need to educate consumers about the technology and its benefits. Managing consumer expectations and lowering the cost premium will be instrumental in accelerating acceptance.” -end Replies to this message: kdhspyder (Jul 30, 2007 1:34 pm)
#382 of 567 More tax incentives for hybrids? Are they needed? by moparbad Jul 30, 2007 (1:33 pm)
Are more tax breaks for hybrids really what this country needs? Congressman, actor Rob Lowe push for plug-in car tax breaks   And Rob Lowe is not the only one. quote- Sens. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Barack Obama, D-Ill., want to offer consumers up to $7,500 in tax credits to convert hybrids to plug-ins. Dubbed the "Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007," or the FREEDOM Act, it also would give automakers incentives to build plug-in vehicles.-end   source J.D. Power- While actual hybrid vehicle owners tend to be older (55) than the average new-vehicle buyer and more affluent, with an average annual household income of $113,400, the study finds that consumers who indicate that they are considering a hybrid tend to be younger (averaging 43 years old), with an average annual household income of $88,500. -end   Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid? Replies to this message: kdhspyder (Jul 30, 2007 1:44 pm) larsb (Jul 30, 2007 2:31 pm) tpe (Jul 30, 2007 3:06 pm) gagrice (Jul 30, 2007 8:42 pm) and 13 more...
#383 of 567 Re: $5250 expected premium for hybrid [moparbad] by kdhspyder Jul 30, 2007 (1:34 pm)
Replying to: moparbad (Jul 30, 2007 1:18 pm) It's interesting that JDP and others apparently have been able to put numbers on people's expectations. I haven't heard these figures but I find them interesting.   Unrealistic? Probably, in both directions; i.e. extra cost and fuel savings.   Here is a key concept that I keep showing. At this specific point in time it doesn't matter which option you ( the buyer ) choose. At $3/gal and 15000 mi annually both an ICE only and a hybrid of the same vehicle will cost you about the same total money over 5 yrs of driving.   The best value now is the HCH due to the $2100 tax credit at the moment. Over 5 yrs the HCH will cost significantly less to drive than a comparable EX AT Civic.   TCH vs 4c XLE Camry..the same total cost Prius vs Matrix XR AT .. the same total cost   The only significant factor as I see it is that the hybrids offer a hedge against future fuel price increases. If fuel is $5/gal in 5 yrs the hybrids will be a clear winner.   However to minimize total transportation costs it's always better to buy a lesser vehicle, preferably a used one.
#384 of 567 Re: More tax incentives for hybrids? Are they needed? [moparbad] by kdhspyder Jul 30, 2007 (1:44 pm)
Replying to: moparbad (Jul 30, 2007 1:33 pm) Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid?   LOL that doesn't go very far in certain parts of the country with a family of 4, 5 or 6 after fed, state and local taxes are deducted.   $100,000 gross with an 'effective tax rate' of ~50% leaves $50,000 or about $4000 a month. -$2500 Mortgage, taxes, interest -$500 gas on 2 vehicles for a month -$200 auto insurance -$500 utilities, cable & phones ZERO debt ( ) no car payments...   that leaves $1500 for.. Life insurance, tuition, church, spending money, dance lessons, sports uniforms, misc.   Oh yeah...Food

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