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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press
567 messages, Last post on Oct 30, 2009 at 9:21 PM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles Forum. Your Host is pf_flyer
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Jun 18, 2007 4:51 pm)
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 15, 2007 1:43 pm) The Chevy Volt will be delayed, the next gen Prius will not hit 94MPG, and the PEVs will likely be postponed. Mark down 6-15-2007 as a bad day in the Hybrid timeline. Most of the big players are trying to develop their own Li-ion batteries somewhat in house. I don't think that you can assume that they are all at the same level of development or even approaching this technological hurdle from the same perspective. I know that GM has contracted with A123 systems to develop the Volt's battery pack. While it is still considered Li-ion there are some significant differences in it's chemistry that overcome problems other Li-ion chemistries have. Most of the press releases seem very optimistic about them making their 2010 production date. Toyota owns a pretty decent chunk of Panasonic. I suspect that's where their battery development is taking place. Panasonic seems mainly focused on maximizing the energy density of it's Li-ion batteries. That's nice for laptops and cell phones but when you are talking about large format batteries there are other issues that have greater importance. Safety, longevity and price to name a few. |
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Replying to: tch_titanium (Jun 16, 2007 2:57 am) Old technology does not mean static. Li-ion has been improving tremendously over the past 10 years. Hybrid technology is old. Diesel engines are even older. and doesn't buy much other than smaller batteries with higher storage density. The wording of that statement gives the impression that you consider this characteristic to be somewhat trivial. Why is that? I'll use your rational and argue with someone advocating diesels. Diesel engines have been around a long time and really don't buy you much other than more miles out of a gallon of gas.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2007 5:10 pm)
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 19, 2007 5:26 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 19, 2007 6:21 am) *WILL* come up with a battery solution which works. It's not IF but only WHEN it will happen. The sooner the better.
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 19, 2007 6:49 am) |
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 19, 2007 5:17 am) Apparently not enough improvement for Toyota to make the switch. Funny how cut and paste makes it easy to take little pieces of a statement and take them out of context. Of course I don't consider smaller size and higher density trivial. My point was that battery technology hasn't gotten significantly better. And I can say that because Toyota dropped it from their next gen Prius. I'll bet Toyota is really pissed at Panasonic right now.
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Replying to: tch_titanium (Jun 19, 2007 11:05 am) wouldn't look at it as bad. Li-Ion is actually rather old technology and doesn't buy much other than smaller batteries with higher storage density. There are other non-trivial trade-offs So apparently you consider smaller size with higher energy density to be a trade-off. If you worked less hours for more pay would that be a trade-off? Advances in silicon, magnetics, and other materials has been steady (much better than batteries) State of the art battery cells can hold more than 4x as much energy per mass as they could 12 years ago. They also can last for over 2x as many cycles. That's a pretty significant improvement in my mind. Apparently silicon and magnetics have improved "much better" than this. Do you care to quantify that statement? BTW, what kind of battery is in your laptop? Despite the Li-ion recalls last year I don't see any computer manufacturers stepping away from these batteries and going back to NiMH or NiCad. I'm also seeing more high end power tools using Li-ion batteries. Maybe Toyota knows something that everyone else doesn't.
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 19, 2007 11:45 am) Li-Ion batteries are well suited to small electronic devices. They do store more energy in less weight. In a laptop the do not present as much of a threat of fire as they would in a larger concentration of cells. They have enough shelf life to satisfy the short warranty on most electronics. That may be the key to Toyota pulling back. They have a known short life span no matter the times they are charged and discharged. Any car with batteries will be required to give a 10 year warranty. At least if they want the ZEV or PZEV rating from CARB.
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