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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press
567 messages, Last post on Oct 30, 2009 at 9:21 PM
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Replying to: larsb (Apr 17, 2007 11:47 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Apr 17, 2007 1:47 pm) The data points we know about are completely ridiculous. So how can the final results be anything but?
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Replying to: larsb (Apr 17, 2007 2:21 pm) Until there is a history of the average life of a hybrid how can you really dispute the arguments. There are so few Prii with more than 100k miles that we are just guessing on the average life cycle. Toyota is gambling that the parts they are forced to warranty hold up for the warranty period. It will be 6 more years on the current model Prius. |
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After reading a few posts here on this CNW study, I searched for it myself and read it. I found their study absolutely absurd. They claim it's a "non-technical report". That's an understatement! In their study, the Prius is rated for 100kmiles, and the Hummer rated for 300kmiles. I would argue they have it backwards, especially with regard to the engine. A Prius engine only runs half the time the car is moving, and almost never runs when the car is stopped at a red light. I can't ever recall an American car living to see 300kmiles of road without some major overhauls, yet I frequently hear of Japanese and German cars gracefully achieving those distances. I need a more convincing argument with verifiable facts to believe their mileage expectancy claims. The data backing up the cost per mile is insufficient. Yes, I can believe the raw materials may actually travel a long way to get a Ni-MH battery into a Hybrid, but what is the true cost of that per vehicle? Are they discounting all the other supplies and goods that a cargo ship carries from A to B? A ship isn't going to carry a few tons of one product and set sail. A lot of materials can travel a long way to get into a car, even the iron to make the steel (which the Hummer has twice the amount as the Prius). The average Prius gets 48 miles to the gallon (www.greenhybrid.com). That's $0.0625/mile for gas at $3.00/gallon. Subtracting that out of the $3.25 per mile for the total cost of the vehicle leaves $3.19 per mile, or $319,000 for your "100,000 mile Prius". Last I checked, a Prius doesn't cost a tenth of that, nor would the maintenance over 8 years. So Toyota must be eating over $200,000 per Prius sold. Or, the Japanese government is subsidizing 90% of the cost to build a Prius! Or, the companies delivering the raw materials to build the Prius are giving them away! Yeah, right! And I was born yesterday. I don't see much validity to the numbers, rather, it appears CNW is twisting the truth just like the media and lawyers can twist statistics and facts to suit their agenda. C Zito |
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Replying to: gagrice (Apr 17, 2007 4:17 pm) I just did some math on that statement Gary. At $2.50 gas, here's what JUST THE GASOLINE COSTS ALONE are to drive each car 300,000 miles. This is with a generous estimate of 11 miles per gallon for the Hummer and only 42 miles per gallon with the Prius: Hummer gas for 300,000 miles: $68,181.82 Prius gas for 300,000 miles: $17,857.14 Assuming insurance is about the same, since they are both "unique vehicles" as far as repair goes, then the Prius would have to have $50,324.69 more dollars worth of repairs in order to cost more than the Hummer for the 300,000 miles. Even if you had to buy 2 replacement HSD batteries, get three HSD system computers replaced, get 5 NAV systems replaced, get two electric motors replaced, and 5 catalytic converters replaced, and get NOTHING replaced on the Hummer, the Prius would STILL be cheaper. And the CNW conclusion that the Prius costs $319,000 for 100K miles ? C'mon now Gary......anyone can see the fallacy in that number..... |
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Replying to: gagrice (Apr 17, 2007 9:26 am) He could just as well written about proof that Elvis is alive in Sudbury because aliens had moved his remains and resurrected him ( proof: National Enquirer ). If you watch vehicle sales, as I do, you will see many Prius being offered that look fine. Yet they carry a Salvage title. Why is that you may ask? It costs more to fix a minor accident in a Prius than to just total it. That would account for a longer lifespan in a larger stronger built vehicle such as a Hummer. This is only supposition on your part. I know this for a fact because my own Prius was been hit 3 times - just this year!!! Even while waiting for the body shop to open a slot for the repairs I drove it damaged with no loss whatsoever in FE and no effect on the driving except the alignment was out. The last accident was a woman hitting the rear door/quarter panel right where the battery pack is located. Result: $5000 in damages from three separate events within 60 days. This includes 10 days of shop labor time ( ~40 hrs ) at $75/hr. Your contention fails in the light of actual fact, Gary.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Apr 18, 2007 5:30 am) LARSB you are assuming also that your cost of replacement parts is less than the cost of the whole. I dare say it would be easy to put $50k in repair parts, for the Prius. The only mention I remember on the HSD/PSD transmission alone was $11k. if not covered by warranty. 10 years ago my wife paid over $2300 to have the AC pump in her Lexus replaced with a rebuilt from Lexus. How much do you think that little part would cost for a Prius today? To you my friend KDHSPYDER. I do not pretend to understand this study. I have gone over the document lightly and found it very confusing. It would be nice to have an unbiased dissemination to read. If you were in a Hummer1 when hit 3 times over the last few months, do you think the damage would have been as expensive to repair? Or would you even be able to tell that you were hit? I have seen many accidents where the crumple zone was severely damaged while the truck bumper was still in good shape. Cars such as the Prius are designed to protect by folding under impact. This is good for the occupants and the body shop. Not the pocket book. I think this study is trying to say just that. Not very clearly for sure. |
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The CNW report makes one assumption (that i haven't seen any mention of yet) that severely tips the scales out of the Prius' favor. This assumption is that hybrids will not catch on, and that all money spent in developement, advertising, and dealership training must be amortized over a small production run of a single model of vehicle. whereas the hummer technology can carry over to different vehicle platforms. I guess that they would have been right, had hybrids not caught on and had the technology not been carried to different models and even been licensed to other manufacturers. I read every word of the dust to dust report (to make sure i didn't overlook any good info), and it is filled with wild assumptions like this. The report is even worse then useless, because a completely ignorant person would have a better grip on reality than a person who believed every word of the CNW report. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Apr 18, 2007 6:18 am) It s-t-r-a-i-n-s credibility to think there might even be ONE Prius in the entire world in the history of the Prius name which would EVER require 50 thousand dollars of repair work in it's life. Let's not waste any more time on that ridiculosity. On the Hummer issue, I assumed you knew the press articles were talking about the American gasoline-powered H2 and H3 Hummer as the vehicles comparing to the Prius, not the old-school diesel H1. I'm not saying the diesel can't make 300,000 miles, but I am saying "Ba-Ha" to the thought of the gasoline model making that many miles.
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Replying to: larsb (Apr 18, 2007 7:23 am) You are probably correct that no one in their right mind would spend $50k to keep a Prius going. To say that you could not spend that much replacing parts is not being realistic. If added up I imagine there are at least $50k worth of parts not counting the labor to install them.
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