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Automotive News & Views Can Chrysler Turn It Around in Bankruptcy?
464 messages, Last post on Oct 02, 2009 at 2:05 PM
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Replying to: hwyhobo (Jan 04, 2007 10:45 am)  Rocky
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Replying to: rockylee (Jan 04, 2007 7:29 pm)  I would love a Crown Vic wagon. Most of the utility of a minivan, with much better handling and mileage. Apparantly, the big 3 just love to be constantly way behind other companies in adjusting to new trends. It's got to be some strange point of pride.
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The minivan isn't going anywhere... There will always be those that want the sliding doors and the versatility of the minivan. Unless SUV's are all of a sudden designed without 4WD (which would sell like ice cream in Antarctica) in mind, then the van offers more room, lower load floor and again, versatility, like the in floor stoandgo seats. And if gas starts creaping up again to 3 and 4 bucks a gallon, then I think you'll see that the fuel efficiency of the mini will win buyers out of there hulking gas pigs like Suburbans and Tahoes. I don't believe for one minute that the minivan is going to go the way of the dinisaur. Nope.
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Replying to: hwyhobo (Jan 04, 2007 11:00 pm) I don't think that a Crown Vic wagon would get any better economy than a minivan. IIRC, the sedan gets something like 17/25, which is better than most truck-based SUVs, but not so hot compared to a minivan. For comparison, a Caravan is EPA rated at 20/26 with the 4-cyl, 19/26 with the 3.3, and 18/25 with the 3.8. As for what's the better hauler, it depends on whether you want to go for volume or mass. A full-sized body-on-frame wagon, properly equipped, would be a better tow vehicle than a minivan. And those old full-sized wagons often had a much higher load capacity. It's frighteningly easy to overload a minivan, because they have a large amount of interior volume, but not such a generous load capacity. For hauling people, I think a minivan is the better way to go. You can usually get 6 adults into a minivan in comfort, with 2+2+2 seating. But with a wagon, it usually means squeezing 3 people across, which can get uncomfortable pretty quick. A buddy of mine has an '04 Crown Vic sedan, and it's really not a very comfortable 6 seater. It has the shoulder room for it, but the tranny hump up front is too huge, and the dash cuts down, plus the split seat makes the center spot a torture chamber. And the back seat isn't much better. Bad footroom, huge driveshaft hump, seats the make the outer passengers lean inward and crowd the center passenger, etc. And on top of that, any 3rd row seat in a station wagon is going to be strictly for the kiddies. I just don't think there's much of a market for a big wagon anymore. The Magnum is about the biggest station wagon out there right now, but it's not selling all that well. And it only has something like 72 cubic feet of cargo space, which is about what the old compact wagons of yesteryear had...stuff like the Aspen/Volare wagon, Fairmont wagon, or an old Dodge Dart or Chevy II from the 60's. Even the biggest wagons usually topped out at around 100-110 cubic feet. Even a smallish minivan like a Mazda MPV has 127 cubic feet. |
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Replying to: andre1969 (Jan 05, 2007 6:52 am) I just don't think there's much of a market for a big wagon anymore. The Magnum is about the biggest station wagon out there right now, but it's not selling all that well. Sorry, but Magnum is not a family wagon. Whatever it wants to be, a ghetto wagon or something, it is aimed at a market which I doubt has wagon in mind. As for the appetite for wagons, Subarus are selling very well, and their gas mileage is not hugely different from the Crown Vic (and the latter could be improved with a diesel). Volvos "V" are selling at least as well as the sedans. I think the moment more efficient power plants are available to propel Crown Vic, the dynamic will change, and people would look toward the larger vehicle, but by then Ford will be again caught with its pants down. Nothing new with this picture. I am not holding my breath. BTW, with an arrival of more efficient power plants, I might look toward a minivan again and test one. I did not say they were dead, just that today they are ill-suited to the market realities.
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Replying to: hwyhobo (Jan 05, 2007 11:15 am) Well, I don't know how many Legacy/Outback wagons they sell, but for 2006, Subaru sold a 84,441 Legacy/Outbacks TOTAL. At least, according to www.aicautosite.com. And these things aren't really family wagons either, but more of an alternative to something like a Ford Focus wagon, just with AWD. They're basically a good vehicle for a couple with small children, but if you need a vehicle that can do what a full-sized wagon will do, or a minivan, they're just not going to cut it. My old supervisor had a Legacy wagon, and I couldn't even fit comfortably in the front seat of it! I thought the Ford Freestyle seemed like a good alternative to the traditional wagon. And Ford sold about 58,000 of them for 2006. But I've heard it's hampered by an underpowered engine. I kinda like the style of them, but I think most of the market just considers them too anonymous looking or wallflowerish.
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Replying to: andre1969 (Jan 05, 2007 11:29 am) It doesn't particularly appeal to me, to be honest. It tries too much to be an SUV. The only two SUVs I ever liked were the huge ones (practical in terms of space, but not for today's market with their gas-sucking engines) and a Subaru Forester, but poor ergonomics for a tall driver. But at least they have character. The Freestyle has all the shortcomings of an SUV, and little if any character. On top of that, it has a center console with an automatic (what is, a sports car??). Sorry, I see 0 (ZERO) justification for taking away my space in the name of supposed fashion in a vehicle that pretends to be all about functionality. That in my opinion appeals to stick-shift wannabes who like to pretend how "hard-core" they are. I've driven stick all my life, and it doesn't impress me one bit. Put the auto stick on the steering wheel column or the instrument panel. Don't take away 20 percent of useful floor and knee space just to impress me with a useless silver shaft. |
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Replying to: andre1969 (Jan 05, 2007 11:29 am) And probably most of those were in San Francisco Bay Area, where I live.  My old supervisor had a Legacy wagon, and I couldn't even fit comfortably in the front seat of it! That's exactly what I meant. People want to buy wagons but don't have many choices. I find Legacy uncomfortable as well. That's why I think large wagons would sell better than suspected. |
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"Put the auto stick on the steering wheel column or the instrument panel. Don't take away 20 percent of useful floor and knee space just to impress me with a useless silver shaft." Now that's an interesting idea...I wonder if in the future we'll see a return to a column or dashboard mounted automatic shifter. After all, "start" buttons are all the rage again after nearly a century... As someone who's owned only manual transmission cars, I also find console-mounted automatics to be kinda pointless in a lot of applications. Sure, if it's an "autostick" (or whatever they call the fake manuals) in a sporty car, but on a family sedan? Wouldn't bigger cupholders and blackberry/ipod/electronic gizmo space be more welcome?
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Replying to: john_324 (Jan 05, 2007 3:23 pm) I drove with one of those autosticks on a BMW 5-series in Germany. The word "fake" doesn't even begin to describe it in my opinion. It is pretentious and of little utility to someone who is used to a real stick. Wouldn't bigger cupholders and blackberry/ipod/electronic gizmo space be more welcome? Sure, but since those are either temporary or not necessarily vertical applications, they could be accommodated on the mid-upper dashboard. Take useless plastic boxes dividing my leg/knee room out of my car. My last two cars have had it, and I am tired of them. They're useless "decorations". Even if you have a stick, there is no need for the box coming down from the dashboard all the way down to the floor in the wide, swooping lines. I want more utility, less style over substance. |
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