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Hybrid Vehicles Honda Insight Honda Insight Hybrid Battery Pack Questions
66 messages, Last post on May 29, 2009 at 3:00 AM
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Replying to: imahelp (Mar 18, 2009 9:24 am) That is certainly true, but you are implying that every cell will fail. As an engineer, you know that is not true. You also know that from the first day the battery is used, it starts to deteriorate. What matters is that the deterioration is within acceptable limits. A brand new Honda battery holds 6500Mah which provides 6 minutes of full boost. A typical 2000 Insight's battery will have deteriorated to about 5800-6200 Mah. This is about 5:30 of boost instead of 6 minutes - which is perfectly acceptable to most people, and is actually even hard to detect. I have found that a battery with P1447 errors might have cells that are only capable of 1500Mah. After reconditioning, those cells get back up to the 5800-6200 Mah range. What matters is replacing the bad cells (the ones with high internal resistance, high self-discharge rate, etc.) that caused the deterioration so that it doesn't happen again. Can another cell go bad? Certainly, but MTBF would suggest that there will be a significant amount of time before that happens. |
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.....I have found that a battery with P1447 errors might have cells that are only capable of 1500Mah. After reconditioning, those cells get back up to the 5800-6200 Mah range. What matters is replacing the bad cells (the ones with high internal resistance, high self-discharge rate, etc.) that caused the deterioration so that it doesn't happen again. Can another cell go bad? Certainly, but MTBF would suggest that there will be a significant amount of time before that happens...... I am an engineer and your statement about MTBF makes no sense at all. The MTBF of these cells is calculated from the day they are manufactured, not from the day you "rejuvenate" them. Are you saying that you believe putting a battery rejuvenator on a battery makes it "like new" again, resetting the MTBF calcs as well? Explain that. And since the cells that you are replacing have failed, and they are part of a sampling of 120 units, how do you make the leap that they were the exception and not the rule? How can you claim that the other cells still have so much more life expectancy when cells in this lot have already failed? Thanks for the price gathering. There seems to be a large disparity between the Honda quotes in the San Diego area and those in New York. I'll be making calls and asking for documentation myself because, with differences of these amounts, Honda America (and their dealerships) owes Insight owners some explanations.
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Replying to: imahelp (Mar 19, 2009 8:37 am) No and stop acting like a moron. You know what I mean. If there are one or two failures in the first 8 years, there aren't likely to be much more than that in the next 8. The projected life for these batteries is 30 years. One or two will go bad early. Others will show early warning. If these are all replaced, then there is a reasonable expectation of 5-8 more years before another failure. They aren't all going to go bad at once. |
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Wow; You seem like quite the hot-head. Now you have reverted to name calling. I don't know how you can possibly make the claims that you do. If the whole pack is several years old and cells have just started to fail, it doesn't make any sense (except to you perhaps) that a smaller number would fail in the future versus larger numbers. The claim defies logic and common sense. My point was (and remains so) that if there are 120 cells in the pack and some are starting to fail, it is reasonable to guess that the remaining cells, that are just as old and deteriorated as the ones that are currently failing, will likely begin to fail also. I have no way (and neither do you) to predict otherwise. The materials have aged, nothing lasts forever, and if I can buy brand new units, I would prefer to do so rather than trickle big bucks out for "snake oil" from a slick seller that throws around technical buzz words.
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Replying to: imahelp (Mar 23, 2009 9:17 am) Honda welded the cells together for a reason, and the bus bars are half an inch wide to carry the extreme current that is produced and consumed by the electric motor. Now, why rebuild a battery? Let me spell it out for the non-technical people on the list and so that you don't spin it further away from the truth. NiMH batteries have an estimated lifespan of about 30 years under ideal conditions. The Insight certainly does not provide ideal conditions, so some of the cells will fail early. We are now at the 8 or so year mark for most of the failing packs. A careful reconditioning and testing of the cells will identify the ones that are bad, the ones that are going bad, the ones that are worn but stable and the ones that are fresh and top performers. If you replace the bad and going bad cells, you can expect the remaining good cells to last quite a while before any more cells die. They do give a great deal of advanced warning before failure and continue to function in a diminished capacity for a long time. This makes repairing a battery an appealing choice over purchasing a new one or upgrading it, because repairing costs about 1/3 of the price of replacing or upgrading and another 5-8 years of battery life without trouble is reasonable to expect. Why replace the 90-95% of the battery that is good? Please feel free to send me more nasty emails if you wish. |
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With regard to the 30 year life expectancy of NiMH batteries, may I suggest to readers of this forum that they do two things; Google the report that keeps getting referenced and consult with your local Honda Dealer or any reputable battery sales source. That should enlighten you and keep everyone honest here. Or just use your own experience as a litmus test. I'm sure that some of you have owned and used NiMH cells in other applications before. You should have some idea of how they perform and how they have failed. Trust your instincts. It is true that I rebuilt my IMA battery pack with new cells. I had no idea I would create such a stir by revealing my design and offering to show it to local Honda Insight owners in this forum. I stated that I used new cells and prefer that approach over buying old packs from junk yards and "rejuvenating" them. I have stated my reasons why. Apparently when people making false and/or misleading claims are called on their information, they become quite agitated. If calling a person that sells "snake oil" and offers distorted and made-up data to people, "not credible" then I guess I am guilty of "name calling" but I will let the readers decide on names like "moron" and anything else that "feels" right to them. In any event, I hope that the readers of this forum will do their homework. I will be happy to show you my car(s) and explain some of my mod's to you if you are local and interested in seeing them. Please do not ask me for pictures of the battery pack, schematics, parts lists etc. I am not here to help further the education of anyone or make myself feel important. I am just offering advice and another solution to what is sure to become an all too familiar problem with Hybrid cars as time goes on. |
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Let's keep the personal disputes off the forums please. What you do off the forums in email is your business. When it spills over onto the forums, that's where it needs to stop and stop now. Thanks for your cooperation and participation. |
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Replying to: imahelp (Mar 23, 2009 1:29 pm) BTW, Honda recycles the good sticks out of warranty packs and uses them in the replacement batteries. All warranty replacement batteries are "remanufactured battery module(s)" and they are ordered by the dealer from CALHAC* If remanufactured/rebuilt/reconditioned/"rejuvenated" batteries are good enough for Honda, they are certainly not "snake oil". Here is a picture of three batteries being repaired:  *Honda Service Bulletin 00-070 dated Dec '06 |
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I've owned my Insight since 2000 and recently, the battery will seem to almost discharge on its own. Generally keep it fully charged, depending on driving in the NW but two things happen: 1. will discharge rapidly after getting down about half way on the meter or 2. will almost be fully discharged when I come out in the morning to go to work. Any ideas? Just found this site and I am reading previous messages. Have about 125K on the car, local dealers appear to be boneheads. Thanks
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The condition that you describe sounds exactly like a battery that is failing. Of course, since your car is probably still within the warranty period (assuming it does not have a salvage title) it is in the interest of the Honda dealer to play dumb and run out the clock on you I suppose. Since it's a 2000 model, you are close to the ten year mark. Have you had the IMA light come on and the system shut down yet? If you haven't, then maybe you should try to accomplish that by taking a drive in some areas that will really tax the system, demanding higher and more sustained current draw from the battery until the system is unable to keep up. Around southern California that is easy to do. We have lots of mountainous area. It seems to me that WV might also have it's fair share of mountain roads to drive on. You might also be able to do that by trying to use full IMA power as often as possible by driving in higher gears than you normally do and keeping the RPM under 3K while having a "lead foot" on the accelerator. Once there is an actual idiot light and obvious problem to address, you can be the one that plays dumb (except for your knowledge of the battery issue and warranty  and try taking it back to them again. Good luck! |
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