Last post on Jan 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM
You are in the Saturn VUE Green Line Hybrid
What is this discussion about?
Saturn VUE, Hybrid Cars, Fuel Efficiency (MPG), SUV
#55 of 84 Re: Driving the GreenLine Again [stevedebi]
Nov 07, 2008 (12:53 pm)
We did a $4 per gallon comparison on the Civic Hybrid vs Civic gas cars. Figured the Hybrid at $4000 higher initial cost for basically the same features on both. . Figures came from Edmunds. Those were MSRP figures and we did not take into consideration that the dealer will "deal" on the gas models but not on the hybrids. Did not figure any tax rebate on the Hybrid or any insurance numbers.. Just figured MSRP to MSRP.
Figured financing the extra initial cost over a 6 year period and going 16,666 miles yearly. So the car would be payed off at 100K miles.
Seems we used 45 mpg for the Hybrid and 35 for the Gas. It took the better part of the 100K miles and the 6 years to hit a break even point.
Putting aside the reported figures and using your above 22 mpg for the gas engined car and 28 for the Hybrid, the gasser would use 146 more gallons of fuel over a 15000 mile drive. About 1 year for the average driver.
At $3 the hybrid would save $438 fuel cost.
At $4 it would save $584.
At $5 it would save $730.
With no interest involved at all the:
$3 gas would take 9.1 years and 136,000 miles to reach a break even point and start really saving any money.
At $4 it would take 6.8 years and 102,739 miles.
The $5 gas would take 5.5 years and 82,191 miles to do the same.
If you consider the extra interest for the $4000, the times and mileages would be longer and higher.
We don't actually know how long the batteries will last, cost of replacements, or any extra expense on the electric drive and regenerating components.
A person feeling they are doing the right thing by being more "Green" is admirable and priceless. A person feeling they are saving a lot of money is not looking at the total cost.
#56 of 84 Re: Driving the GreenLine Again [kipk]
Nov 07, 2008 (2:01 pm)
I've seen a number of comparisons on hybrid vs gas but so far no one has figured in the cost of new batteries at somewhere between about 5 and 7 years. What do they cost and is this the type of car you drive the wheels off of or dump it before it needs batteries and will a dealer give you a decent price on trade or give you a real low $ due to it needing batteries at anytime. Anyone care to comment?
#57 of 84 Re: Driving the GreenLine Again [dmathews3]
Nov 08, 2008 (5:10 am)
These are questions and concerns that I have and look forward to other ideas as long as they are kept civil.
To make an intelligent buying decision, we need to know the warranty on the batteries and associated "Electric Drive" components. We need to know the replacement cost, including labor. What warranty does the Vue have on these items. How about the "starter" for the gas engine that will be used a lot for every trip!
My concern is that the battery pack may need replacing around 100K miles and the price will be in the $3000-$5000 range, depending on car make and model.
Therefore, just about the time the Vue hybrid is beginning to reach the "break even point" there is another $3K-$5K EXPENSE that has to be over ridden. So the owner is right back where he or she started, more or less and will never actually save any money unless gas prices exceed $6 per gallon. (Which could happen). Except that now the car has 100K on the clock and may not be worth much more than the price of the battery pack. So does it become a throw away car? Or does the fact that it is a Hybrid enhance it's resale value to a point that battery replacement is worthwhile.
To attempt trading in the car before the batteries crash would surely have an effect on the value of the trade. For example, a 5-6 year old gasser with 80K miles, might be worth, say $4-$5K. A hybrid in same condition is getting close to battery replacement time and the dealer MUST take that into consideration. What is GM doing to make that a non issue?
Battery technology has improved greatly over the past few years. How will that affect an 08-09 Vue, in 5 years? Will the same charging and regenerating systems of an 09 car be able to deal with newer battery types in the future? Will battery prices decrease dramatically like the prices of flat/thin TV sets?
Or will today's Hybrids be obsolete
#58 of 84 Compare Honda CRV vs Vue Hybrid
Nov 08, 2008 (8:59 am)
Please note I ride in a car pool 4 days a week. My co-worker owns a Honda CRV. I own a Vue GreenLine. My wife and I have driven both the Vue GreenLine, the Honda CRV, the 4 Cylinder Vue. She purchased a 2008 Vue XR, which she likes, as she only travels a couple of miles to work.
He (my co-worker) gets 19-20 mpg commuting (real-life). I get 26-28 mpg (real-life). Our commute is the same. He lives in the next cul-de-sac.
I get crammed into his CRV like a sardine. I sit comfortably in my Vue. I am 6'2" and weigh 225.
His Honda CRV can only crawl up a moderately steep hill on the way to work. My Vue GreenLine holds its speed.
I prefer REAL-LIFE direct comparisons. Please note I have a good opinion of the CRV as a smaller SUV. It was a much better performer than the non-hybrid Vue 4 cylinder.
I will find out about the battery in a few years. The problems with the electrical harness and batteries are a legitimate concern. Of course, with less than 7000 Vue GreenLines made in 2007, it may be a rare car in 10 years. Maybe it will be worth more than an Edsel.
The bottom line is hybrids, most likely plug-ins, are the future, whether you like it or not. We can't keep on sending our money out of the country to pay for oil. My opinion, based on direct conversations with other scientists working on hydrogen/fuel cells, is the technology is 20 years off, if ever. Not including a total re-work of the nations's infrastructure to make hydrogen commercially available.
#59 of 84 Re: Compare Honda CRV vs Vue Hybrid [chmsomm]
Nov 08, 2008 (6:23 pm)
>"I get crammed into his CRV like a sardine. I sit comfortably in my Vue. I am 6'2" and weigh 225"
Here are the inside dimensions of the 08 GL VUE and the 08 CR-V
Front Head Room: 40.2 in. Front Hip Room: 52.6 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 56 in. Rear Head Room: 39.3 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 55.9 in. Rear Hip Room: 52.9 in.
Front Leg Room: 40.7 in. Rear Leg Room: 36.9 in.
Luggage Capacity: 29.2 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 56 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 5
Front Head Room: 38.9 in. Front Hip Room: 55.9 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 56.9 in. Rear Head Room: 38.5 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 56 in. Rear Hip Room: 54.6 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.3 in. Rear Leg Room: 38.5 in.
Luggage Capacity: 35.7 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 73 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 5
The CR-V is larger in every dimension except head room. Possibly the reason you don't feel cramped in your Vue is because you are driving.. My next door neighbor is 6'3" and brags about the room in his wife's CR-V. Of course when he is in it, he is in the drivers seat.
>"Please note I have a good opinion of the CRV as a smaller SUV."
And you obviously have a good opinion of the even smaller VUE.
The Vue is a pleasant looking car and will likely give you good service. To me the exterior has more eye appeal than the CR-V does.
The question at hand is how long and how many miles is the "break even point", and how will todays Hybrids fare in the future. Whether it be a Vue or any other hybrid.
>His Honda CRV can only crawl up a moderately steep hill on the way to work. My Vue GreenLine holds its speed".
Maybe your co-workers CR-V is an older, smaller model with a smaller engine. .
I have yet to experience a hill, on the street, that our 03 4WD CR-V doesn't go up with enthusiasm. My wife averages around 21mpg and I get about 24mpg real world, local driving. Trips usually less than 7 miles one way. Fuel mileage has got a lot to do with the driver's foot.
#60 of 84 Re: Compare Honda CRV vs Vue Hybrid [kipk]
Nov 09, 2008 (3:02 pm)
Glad you like your CRV. Nice that you copied the spec's.
However, that is why people look at specs, and then do actual test drives to determine their levels of personal comfort. I learned many years ago as I scientist that theory must be backed up by actual testing. The other item was the comparison of mileage, the difference of which I found to me much greater than what you listed. Driven both, riden in both, evaluated both.
My wife and I have test driven the various Vue models, Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, Chevy Equinox and the Pontiac equivalent, and the 2009 AWD Pontiac Vibe. I have also driven a a Subaru as a rental.
Glad you like your CRV. I see alot of them on the road, obviously people like them, and they appear to be very reliable. If I remember correctly, CRVs are now made in the U.S. Is that correct?
The plug-in hybrids that will be coming out in the next few years will decrease our dependence on foreign oil and help stem outflow of our money. Many people who have older Prius's are converting them to be more electric reliant.
Remember. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country".
#61 of 84 Re: Compare Honda CRV vs Vue Hybrid [chmsomm]
Nov 10, 2008 (5:05 am)
Just so we are on the same page and there are no misunderstandings. I'm trying real hard to justify purchasing a hybrid from somebody. I happen to like the looks and some other virtues of the Vue. Am still considering the possibility of replacing the CR-V with a Vue. Thus I'm on Vue forums. Also considering a Hybrid. Thus I'm on this particular forum. There is nothing wrong with the CR-V. Just ready for something different.
I understand there are "TROLLS" that visit forums to stir up controversy, I also understand there are those that exaggerate the truth to satisfy their own agenda and make themselves feel better about choices they have made. I am neither of those. I'm here to find the truth and make an informed decision. I'm retired and VALUE is important .
When someone makes a statement as though it is "Truth" I investigate. You stated the comfort of your Vue and how you were crammed like a sardine into the CR-V. Also that the CR-V is a nice "Small" SUV. I investigated and found your statements difficult to understand. as the Vue has the smaller dimensions. As a scientist, you can certainly appreciate repeatable facts. FACTS are that the CR-V has more leg room front and back than the Vue, which should accomodate your longer legs better. It also has more hip and shoulder room which should accomodate your body size better. To back up those FACTS I copied and posted the actual specs, for your viewing pleasure.
I understand the "Perception is Reality" thing, although it is not scientific. Your perception of the driving position may be better in the Vue, for you, and you may be "Riding" in an older, smaller, less powerful CR-V. But truth be known, the CR-V is larger for the occupants and has considerably more luggage/cargo space. Plenty of power to deal with any paved road, and many that aren't paved.
This forum is about the Green Line Vue. For me, the question is whether or not the Hybrid is right for me and mine.
You wrote, "The other item was the comparison of mileage, the difference of which I found to me much greater than what you listed."
Used 22 for the CR-V although EPA says 23 I think. And used the EPA numbers for the Vue Hybrid. Those number are actually dealing with greater difference in mileage than actual drivers posted on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ . Seems the drivers aren't getting the EPA ratings from the Vue. What numbers would you like to consider?
FWIW: Based on Edmunds numbers the "Base" Green Line has a $4880 higher MSRP than the Base 4 cylinder model. Add in 6% sales tax, Financing the Green Line at MSRP, at 5% for 60 months will cost $100 more per month than financing the 4 Cylinder Vue. According to Edmunds auto calculator. Understandably, there may be some tax incentives for the Hybrid, but there may also be some Manufacturers incentives for the gasser.
Let us use a probably unrealistic 10 mpg difference between the Hybrid and Gasser?
At 15000 miles per year the 32 mpg hybrid will use 469 gallons of fuel. The 22mpg gasser will use 682 gallons. The Hybrid uses 213 fewer gallons. At $3 the savings are $639 yearly. At $4 the savings are $852 yearly. At $5 they are $1065 yearly.
Seems wonderful until we figure back in the extra $1200 per year car note.
The less we drive the less the fuel savings, but that $1200 extra car note marches right along for those 5 years.
You wrote: "Remember. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"."
What I did for my country was serve 8 years in the military. Work and pay taxes. Not take any hand outs or welfare from the government. . Keep my thermostat on 70 in the winter and 78 in the summer. Exceed EPA ratings on my cars.
I don't like sending $700 Billion a year to terrorist countries any more than anyone else. Fact is that we don't need to, other than the congress won't allow us to fix it. There are huge amounts of oil, oil shale, natural gas, and coal under our soil and off our coast.. We need to go after them. That would create 10s of thousands of jobs and keep that $700 billion right here. ANWR oil could be flowing in the Alaska pipeline in 1 to 3 years. Oil from 3 western states possibly sooner than that. Lower the national speed limit to 65 mph and enforce it. Create "Plug In" Electric vehicles for the short distance commuters and trips to the store. They already have that for all practical purposes. Leave off the gas engine and associated hardware and add more batteries and a AC to Dc charger.
Why don't the auto mfgs do that? Why doesn't congress allow the energy companies to harvest more oil and gas. Hmmmm...!
Not forgetting wind, nuclear, solar and tide energy sources. About 25% of the oil we use powers automobiles.
#62 of 84 Breakeven Point....
Nov 10, 2008 (11:14 am)
No one talks on this site and then there are 15 posts in less than a week. Go figure.
A person feeling they are doing the right thing by being more "Green" is admirable and priceless. A person feeling they are saving a lot of money is not looking at the total cost. -- Kip
I have looked at the costs, will use my numbers and you can be the judge.
Since, I have driven the furthest and gotten the best documented gas mileage of any Saturn Hybrid Vue owner here is my bottom line on my BREAKEVEN point:
Back in December of 2006 Hybrid Vue cost $2250 less that the Regular view.
I received a $650 tax credit on my 2006 income taxes $2250 - $650 = $1600 difference.
In the first two years of operation I have saved $1002.78 in gas. That figure is derived from the fact that the Regular Vue gets 5 mpg less that of the Hybrid Vue.
Source = FuelEconomy.gov 2007 Hybrid Vue 23 City 29 highway 26 avg
2007 Regular 4 cyl Automatic 19 City 25 highway 21 avg
I have taken the 5 mpg difference, computed the savings for each tank and have added up the savings. As of 11/7/2008 my 59,095 miles equates to a savings of $1002.78.
Source - my excel spreadsheet.
$1600 - $1002.78 = $597.22 I still have $597.22 to breakeven. That should occur in the next 14 - 16 months based upon my current driving patterns and gas prices of around $2.50.
Therefore, strickly on a cost/gas basis I breakeven in 3 years and a few months.
However, that does not take into consideration that the resale value of a Hybrid Vue vs a similarly equiped Vue. According to Kelly's Blue Book = my Saturn Hybrid Vue would net in excellent condition $11,670 vs a similarly configured excellent condition 4cyl Vue at $8,655. A difference of $3,015.
Therefore, if I sold my Hybrid Vue tomorrow I would would still be in the hole $597.22 but get $3,015 more. Therefore, I would net $2,417.78. Looking at the big picture I have already reached the breakeven point and continue to increase my value.
In addition, one must also consider the environmental benefits. Using the 5 mgp better figure from Fuel Economy.gov - I have already saved 335.044 gallons of gas.
If down the road the Hybrid will need a new battery I will be well on the positive side of the equation. The cost of a new battery and installation should be offset by my gas/cost and resale value benefits.
#1> BREAKEVEN Point has been reached regardless of if I need a new battery at 100,000 miles or not.
#2> I am up $2,417.78.
#3> I have saved 335.044 gallons in the process.
#4> Not to mention I love driving my Saturn Hybrid Vue.
#63 of 84 Re: Breakeven Point.... [hybridvue]
Nov 10, 2008 (2:18 pm)
"Back in December of 2006 Hybrid Vue cost $2250 less that the Regular view."
Did you mean to say the Hybrid was cheaper, or was that a type-O?
If the Hybrid was cheaper, you would have been ahead with the Hybrid as soon as you drove off the dealer lot. Great deal!
At present time the Hybrids are $27930 and the gasser 4 cylinders are $23050 MSRP. According to Edmunds.
Tax credits and "dealing" have to also fall into the mix.
#64 of 84 Re: Compare Honda CRV vs Vue Hybrid [kipk]
Nov 10, 2008 (6:37 pm)
Happy Veterans Day. Semper Fi. I spent 6 years in the service.
Since you state you are considering a hybrid. Would I buy a 2008 Hybrid Vue? The answer is no. Saturn has significantly jacked up the price on the 2008 GreenLines. I think the payback is questionable on the 2008s. I also think Saturn has to demonstrate they have fixed the electical harness and battery problems that plagued the 2007s. Read my other posts. I am pretty darn hard on Saturn.
I purchased my 2007 GreenLine using a discount. Also had 0% financing. Very significant discount on the extended warranty. Overall, I got a pretty good deal on the 2007 GreenLine. I like getting 26-28 mpg on the commute. I keep my cars 6-8 yrs. Ask me what I think of the Hybrid Vue in 5-6 yrs.
The question is the price for plug-in hybrids that will be out in 2009-2010? What is hybrid surcharge and what will the payback point be?
Sorry that you feel I am being dishonest about my comparison, but I stand by my evaluation.I really feel crammed into the CRV. It is very uncomfortable for me. Head room, leg room, shoulder room issues. Ergonomics? Usable room?
This will be my last post on the issue.