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Hybrids: The new "muscle car"? - READ ONLY

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#9 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [gagrice] by larsb

Oct 25, 2006 (11:39 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 25, 2006 11:34 am)
Those are not "dandy examples" of where hybrids are going at all.
 
They are two high-end hybrid options put forward by Toyota which are MORE FUEL EFFICIENT THAN A COMPARABLY POWERFUL GAS ENGINE ONLY CAR.
 
As I said for the first time almost two years ago:
 
Hybridization is NOT MERELY for "super-high-mileage cars." It's also going to be used to make a comparably powerful car which is more fuel efficient.
 
There are about 12 more hybrid cars, trucks, and SUVs to hit the USA shores by the end of the 2008 model year. Not all of them are "high-mileage only" but EVERY ONE OF THEM will be more fuel efficient than the gas-only version of that same car.

#10 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [terry92270] by gagrice

Oct 25, 2006 (4:56 pm)

Replying to: terry92270 (Oct 25, 2006 11:35 am)
Nice study. Too bad it does not tell the whole story. How those at the top making millions bring up the median income with out anyone attached. It does not show that the folks at the bottom of the income ladder are not doing as well as those at the bottom 50 years ago. If you have two people one making a dollar a year and the other 1 million a year the median income is $500k per year. The study I like to use claims the average CEO makes 583 times more than the bottom paid employee in the company. I think that is morally wrong. But not legally wrong. I don't advocate doing what the French did in the late 1780s. The study makes it sound glamorous for a mother to have a good job. Most were doing fine as house wives. Not many men make enough to support a family today like they did 50 years ago.
 
Getting back to hybrids. If you take the median priced hybrid built by Toyota/Lexus it will cost about $42k. Hardly the average priced vehicle. That median price will go up when they add the next two hybrids to the string. I hear the LS460h & LS600h are close to $100k. That should please the Hollywood types that are tired of driving around in that goofy looking Prius.

#11 of 38 screw the mileage.. by kdhspyder

Nov 04, 2006 (6:03 am)

I might have to get one of these....
 
Same general price range as a TCH but Son of Supra?
 
It may require a free registration.
 
Summary: the Lexus 450h hybrid powertrain in a rear-wheeled drive Toyota sports car with 0-60 times estimated in the 5 sec range.

#12 of 38 Re: screw the mileage.. [kdhspyder] by gagrice

Nov 04, 2006 (8:22 am)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Nov 04, 2006 6:03 am)
I am more interested in the car they mention at the bottom of the article. The Daihatsu Copen EV. If I wanted that kind of performance I would buy or Porsche or Corvette. It is good to see that Toyota has a division that is working on economy and not performance. What would you do with a car like that? You said your commute is limited to 65 MPH. Having a car like the Supra hybrid or GS450h would only cause depression. Or you would get lots of speeding tickets.

#13 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [gagrice] by john1701a

Nov 05, 2006 (9:27 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 25, 2006 4:56 pm)
> If you take the median priced hybrid built by Toyota/Lexus it will cost about $42k. Hardly the average priced vehicle.
 
That's a fantastic example of using statistics to mislead!
 
You cannot do a direct comparison to come up with a market average. That's totally deceptive. It gives the impression that sales of the most expensive luxury hybrid are equal to that of the most basic one... which couldn't be further from the truth.
 
The inclusion of quantity available is essential. You must be take that into account. It's call a "weighted average", a standard calculation practice use to provide numbers which are representative of actual market volume.
 
Of course, feeding us a number without any explanation of how it was derived is reason to be suspicious anyway. Being vague isn't helpful.
 
In short, the appropriate average price to quote is significantly lower due to so many more Prius being produced.
 
JOHN

#14 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [john1701a] by gagrice

Nov 05, 2006 (2:19 pm)

Replying to: john1701a (Nov 05, 2006 9:27 am)
I used exactly the same tactics that Toyota uses to claim they are selling a given percentage more than last year. Even though the Corolla almost passed up the Camry for number ONE and may do so yet this year. In their statistics they use a vehicle as ONE. Whether it is an LX470 or a Yaris. So how is that any different than my giving an average price for a Toyota/Lexus hybrid.
 
If you have the exact figures for the HH and TCH sales we could come up with an average price paid per hybrid through October. With the average Prius going out the door at about $30k I don't think my $42k will be that far off.

#15 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [gagrice] by terry92270

Nov 05, 2006 (2:56 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Nov 05, 2006 2:19 pm)
The Prius has a MSRP of $22,175. The Touring Edition has one of $23,070. With Option Combo "B" ( includes AM/FM CD with six speakers, auxiliary audio jack and MP3/WMA playback capability, Smart Key System, [5], backup camera [11] and Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) [4] (HG)) , that brings the standard edition to $23,970. That price includes Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee.
 
In 2006, $24,000 can hardly be called a luxury or high-priced car. Certainly it falls cheaper than many car's the average wage-earners are buying today, including the Chevy Impala.
 
Even with sales tax and license fees, that leaves it "about" $4,500 short of $30,000.

#16 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [terry92270] by gagrice

Nov 05, 2006 (5:15 pm)

Replying to: terry92270 (Nov 05, 2006 2:56 pm)
According to our hosts here at Edmunds the very cheapest Prius available has an average selling price or $28,726 OTD. The top model Touring with package 6 goes out the door for just over $35k. Those are not my figures they are right here on Edmunds today. That is here in the largest by far hybrid market CA.
 
Toyota says the average Prius buyer makes $85k per year. Why is it so hard to admit that the hybrids are not for the average buyer? Toyota has not announced any plans for a lower level hybrid than the Prius. They just keep raising the bar.
 
The latest is a monster hybrid rocket that is gold plated with a hint of green for the upper, upper class among us that would not be caught dead in a Prius or TCH. The LS600h defines this thread to the max. It also points the direction Toyota has for their hybrids.
 
PS
Several posters here have used Edmunds TMV to back up their claims of high resale values for hybrids. So I hope it is not a one way street.

#17 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [gagrice] by terry92270

Nov 05, 2006 (5:37 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Nov 05, 2006 5:15 pm)
I can only go to the Toyota website, and look at the figures posted there for MSRP, same as you can. Edmunds has never been the end-all and be-all as to prices, and I think anyone who has bought and sold more than one car knows that....
 
If you go to THIS Edmunds link, sedans, $15-$25,000 is where they put the Prius. And, once again, they state the prices are what I posted above.
 
Any demographer could tell you why Toyota says the average buyer makes $85,000. Number one, they are aiming at that market, or where, as that was their false assumption as to who would buy it. Number two, someone making half that amount might be less likely to complete the internet sales questionnaire, and most people, according to pollsters inflate their actual income in surveys.
 
It makes no difference, whichever scenario above is true, your figures are wrong. Not according to me, but according to Toyota, And, more importantly, according to these forums, and the prices paid by users here.
 
I wonder if the "prices paid" as asserted by Edmunds, has ever been updated in the last six months or so
 
Maybe one of our hosts can enlighten us about the "prices paid" as stated on Edmunds, versus Edmunds and Toyota's MSRP....

#18 of 38 Re: Very cute little opinion/review piece [terry92270] by gagrice

Nov 05, 2006 (7:09 pm)

Replying to: terry92270 (Nov 05, 2006 5:37 pm)
I don't know what to tell you. Here are the facts straight from a local dealer. They have 7 Prius available. Six of them are base models with a starting MSRP of $28,074 the Touring they have is MSRP $29,757. So far I have given two sources for my claims. You have given none. Just your opinion of what the Toyota prices should be. And yes the Toyota website gives the basic MSRP with no packages no administration fee. It all adds up and up until 10/1/06 no negotiating of the price. I am assuming a person could negotiate a better price now than before the Tax Credit was halved. You have to remember when I argued that the resale prices here for hybrids were not realistic. Well everyone liked the TMV when it looked good for hybrid resale. Now that it shows that hybrids are over priced you and others will argue they are not realistic. I think that eBay is the best source of prices paid for used cars. Many disagree.
 
Speaking of performance hybrids: eBay has two brand new G450h listed. They are not getting any serious bidders. One is a Neiman Marcus number 54/75 for you speed freaks.
http://www.powaytoyota.com/Default.aspx?page=toyotanew-cars

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