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You are in the BMW M/M3/M6
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BMW M6, Convertible
Article comments for First Drive: 2007 BMW M6 Convertible - Although some will consider it sacrilegious to eliminate the beautiful carbon-fiber cover that tops the M6 coupe, the benefit is sheer aural pleasure. With nothing between you and the harmonious bellow of one of the most remarkable engines in production car history, the only thing left to do is slather on some SPF 50 to keep your dermatologist happy and let the sun, wind and sound prickle your senses. (more)
Mar 30, 2007 (9:49 am)
Spritinthesky ... I'm not attacking either your appreciation of BMW's, or your assesment that the Porsche is a better track car. You obviously are not a fan of the current M generation cars, and I'd be silly to say that the M6 will beat a Porsche on the track given a) the current weight of the current M cars, b) the fact that most of the fastest times on the Nuerburgring are held by Porsches, or c) the fact that the roadholding numbers of the M6 don't compare to that of the Porsche.
So, what it comes down to is arguing abou taste and preference, and whether you really want a "serious track car" for daily use. But if that's the case, then why don't you get yourself a Le Mans car and be done with it? Or a GT3 RS? Obviously this is ridiculous, so at some point you have to choose what's important to you and move on.
Personally I'd take the Ferrari F430 anyway...
And I'm going to take a leap here, but other than saying to yourself, "look ma ... I'm cool, I'm in a Le Mans car," would you even know what to do with one anyway? I wouldn't ... not without some serious training.
What I can say is this. I have a dealer who is very kind to me and who will take me out of my current car and put me in a porsche if that's what I really want. So I took him up on his offer to let me drive the porsche for a while over the last couple of weeks because I was going to make the leap of faith that all that rear weight was worth it and jump into one.
But honestly, with Porsche's low rent interior and 40 year old design that they seem to be merging with the TT styling that I so much loathe, is any Porsche but the GT3 going to get my dollars? Probably not. I took my dealers new 997 out on the freeway and it jumped all over the road, blew around in the wind, and threatened to swing out if pushed hard on a corner.
I took a CPO 2006 997s out and it was a rickety piece of crap. At 70 the car felt like it was going 90, and when i stepped on it at 4000 rpm it felt like the bases were loaded and I struck out at home plate.
I'm dropping that kind of serious dough on a car I'm going to drive every day, I want something that's sleek, smooth, and mean. At 100 the M6 feels like it's going 55, it's quiet and civilian on the inside, except for that exhaust note always reminding you that the car is ready to pounce, and the steering balance is near perfect (not to mention the car's weight distribution).
About your claims of the M6's acceleration, I just don't think you know how to drive it. And besides, you can't compare the worst numbers for the M6 to impossible numbers for a Porsche 911 to make your point. I'm willing to admit that I don't know much about current Porsches, and don't have much love for them. But it's obvious the same is true for you and the current M6's.
But since you insist on claiming stupid things about the M6's performance, you asked for it ... watch this video.
First, a few words about it ... it was put out by the folks at M5board, from a track day in Europe where several people got together at an airstrip and raced from rolling starts. Why rolling starts? Because it's not as hard on the cars, it's less likely to give AWD cars the advantage off the line, and is more indicative of what the cars can really do.
Secondly, the car being driven is an M5 (which is slower than the M6), but it has been modded. How much? Well ... no turbo or supercharger. It's been given some reprogramming and some exhaust as far as I understand.
But these topics are always hotly debated on M5 board, and since you're a self-professed bimmer fan maybe you should join.
#16 of 30 re: last post [kimchimofo]
Mar 31, 2007 (7:34 am)
It appears that you've gone beyond irrational exuberance for the M6 straight to arrogant obnoxiousness. I don't really care to play that game, but perhaps you ought to get a few of your facts straight:
"I took a CPO 2006 997s out and it was a rickety piece of crap."
Well then, just where does that put BMW on the feces scale? According to JD Powers, Porsche surpassed Lexus in 2006 as #1 in quality for 2006. BMW? Oh, there it is, #28 out of 38, 13 slots below the industry average and 3 slots below that premium brand, Kia. Check it out for yourself:
And, speaking of feces, maybe you should just stop shoveling it with respect to your weight loss heroics and BS numbers. In fact, the M3 CSL is 243 lbs, not 363 lbs lighter than the M3 coupe. And it didn't get there by a few pieces of carbon and a "titanium exhaust". They cut just a few luxury items, too, like
"Gone for good are the navigation and audio systems, as well as power windows, mirrors, and door locks. The plush carpet and most of the sound-deadening material have been excised as well, as have the foglamps, the tire-pressure monitors, the side air bags, and the air conditioning."
So I guess now you are going to claim that your ubber comfortable M6 doesn't have A/C, power windows and a sound system?
RS Sports M3 CSL
Automobile - BMW M3 CSL
I happened to drop a friend off to pick up his BMW that was in for service at the Washington areas's premier independent BMW shop, BMW Excluservice. Lothar Schuettler is considered a BMW legend, having raced for BMW in the 1970's and worked for the Motorsports factory as an engineer before coming to the US in 1984. When it was still legal, he converted dozens of high end German models in the 1980's to meet US requirements for executives and celebrities. I asked him about your claim of having knocked 300-400 lbs off a factory M6. He just laughed and responded, "Bulls__t. Either the owner is an idiot for believing it or the shop is committing fraud for claiming it. Have them call me personally - I'll be happy to debunk this crap". Lothar's number is below, call him if you want:
The fact is the BMW M6 is a very fine car, as is the Porsche 911. It's just too bad that someone lucky enough to get an M6 is an obnoxious ___. If, that is, you actually own one. I find it hard to believe that, with all your slinging of wild figures, you didn't know that the curb weight of the M6 was 91 lbs short of 2 tons before you supposedly bought one.
#20 of 30 re: enough already
Mar 31, 2007 (1:28 pm)
I am allowing myself to respond to this thread again, because it appears that two hot-headed people (and possibly one moron - myself) have gotten me into a hole here, I wanted to attempt to dig myself out to re-focus on the point. Additionally, I also now feel compelled to smooth out some of the rough edges here with the hopes of convincing the rest of the readers here that neither am I, nor are most BMW owners, as obnoxious as these three previously mentioned fellows would have led you to believe.
The BMW M6 (and M5) is a great car. I donít believe itís the best car thatís ever been made, but I do feel that itís the best performance car that BMW is currently making, and while it's not a "pure sports car", it's a sporty car with fantastic cornering ability, balance, and performance that is very rewarding to drive. It is solid, stable, and has cutting edge technology and refined luxury, and distinct (love or hate) looks as well. It also has a fantastic engine and anyone who is capable an interested in owning one of these cars will be impressed each time they bring it up to the redline. This engine has received numerous awards as international engine of the year:
While some of the M6ís attributes have made the car controversial in the minds of many "purists", I nor BMW never claimed that this is a direct rival to the 911. Though many sports car magazines might have compared it to the 911 (as have I), this is due to the fact that many consider the 911 to be the quintessential sports car. The M6 is, and always will remain a sporty luxury coupe with some fantastic sports car capabilities. And it does come impressively close -- and with a little modification (as shown in a previous video) can even keep up with the 911 turbo on a rolling start airstrip race.
In the M6's case, here is some further evidence about just how fantastic of a car the M6 is, as well as evidence of just how fantastic the Porsche's are:
These are numbers posted from the Nuerburgring in Germany, the famed proving ground for fast cars. This was the quickest documentation I had at hand of these numbers, and I'm sure there are lots of other numbers out there as well.
Assuming these figures are not overly biased either towards the M6 or the Porsche, the fact that the M6 could post 8:09 minutes around the Nordschleife while the 997 S Carrera posted 8:05 just goes to show you how capable the, admittedly, overweight monster is. I have read another statistic that puts the 997s at 7:59 with the Performance setting. And yet another one that puts the M6 at 8:05. Times on the track vary a lot with the driver, the weather, the tires, etc. But this same report puts the M6 faster than the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 as well, both also cars that I've owned.
Being within 4 seconds of the Carrera S is quite an accomplishment on BMWís part, especially when weíre talking about numbers on a scale of 8 minutes. If we take the best numbers, 7:59 for the Carrera S and 8:05 for the M6, thatís still impressive. Yes the 911 turbo is even more impressive still, but after I add the options I like that car stickers for almost 150k, and at that price Iíd start considering the F430 anyway. For those of you 911 turbo owners on this forum obsessed with road feel, track times, and handling, you should consider selling trading your turbos for a GT3 or GT3 RS anyway.
As far as the M3 CSL's weight goes, it appears some of you were more concerned about making me look like I don't know what I'm talking about than checking your facts ... not that it matters here anyway becuase we are talking about M6's and not M3's. I guess your goal was that if you could make me lose credit over my facts and figures about the M3's weight that you would weaken my argument??
What was my argument, or the one you thought I was making anyway??? That the M6 is a better sports car than the 911? If you think this is what I'm claiming then I'm either not communicating clearly enough or you're not reading what I'm saying very well. And this, in the end, is what prompted me to try to refine the point I was making and, thus, post yet again to this thread.
For the record, my numbers come from the same site that you cite:
M3 CSL (3052 pounds):
M3 Coupe (3415 pounds):
For those of you not familiar with the M3 CSL, this car was not offered in the US, and as RSportsCars states, was optioned with A/C, stereo, and Navigation (not standard), and was only offered in an SMG II as well, bringing us back to the reason I originally took the time to post to this thread anyway ... the transmission.
...and my thoughts on the matter? The transmission can be a bit ill-behaved for every day driving, but brilliant when you push the car to its limits providing not only lightning fast shifts but two-handed control on the wheel.
Having considerable technology in a car is something you either want or donít. I love the Bluetooth integration with my cell phone, the robust navigation, the real time traffic info, the stereo (satellite, mp3, HD Radio), the keyless operation of my car (comfort access), the ability to customize many aspects of my car through one [IDrive] interface. Though the M6 seems a bit out of place at the track, I donít drive it at the track so what do I care? I drive this car on the road, and on the road this car is a rock-solid luxury coupe puts a grin on my face every time I push it hard. That said my first car was a 1956 Porsche 356 -- it doesn't get much more mechanical than that -- and am seriously considering getting a GT3, so obviously Iím a Porsche fan myself. But I also realize that someone looking at the M6 might be looking for a different experience than a 911 turbo driver.
In conclusion, those of you who think the same of me and my opinions before and after this posting I have a feeling have some other problems and will think the same thing no matter what I say. Maybe the few of you should spend less time correcting people and more time at the track, driving the cars you already know to be perfect.
For the rest of you, I hope the information I provided here was useful.
Apr 04, 2007 (5:45 am)
Last weekend I went out car shopping with one of my senior partners who is in the market for a coupe or convertible sports car or GT.
In addition to Mercedes, Porsche and Aston, we stopped by a BMW dealer to check out the 650i and M6. I have got to say that I was shocked. I really haven't looked closely at the 6-series before - and now I know why. The 650i and M6 may be very well constructed cars of high quality materials, but the design, interior and exterior, is horrible, IMO. And I am a big fan of BMW, especially the Motorsport models (my brother consults for their racing team).
I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all of that. But the 6-series convertible looks like it came off the same drawing board as the Toyota Solara and Lexus SC from the rear end. And all of them look like they have posteriors that need to get on Ultra Slimfast. Actually, make that the entire car. The 6-series just looks like a hulking load and it's proportions, for a 2+2 are about as sexy as the fat lady at the circus. The interiors are hardly works or art either, losing their driver oriented cockpits of old and replacing it with i-drive, SMG and a totally uninspired layout.
I know my comments will probably not be taken in the spirit I intend, but I would like BMW to get the word from loyalists and fans (like me) that they have really screwed up on the design side. The previous generations of M3's and M5's were great to drive - and were good looking, sporty driver oriented cars. But now, even the smallest 335i coupe they had on the floor look liked it lost any semblence of a sporty cockpit.
Personally, I'd take a 1980's 6-series over the 2007 for looks. There is no friggin way anyone can think a 2007 650i, or even the M6, is going to be sought after as a collectible in 10+ years. We actually drove the 650i coupe to the Aston Martin dealer and parked it next to a Vantage V8. Talk about the ugly duckling next to a work of art. And I don't even like Astons.
BMW, if you are listening, wake up and schedule an exorcism. No one makes a better sport sedan than BMW, but it's getting to the point that you need to be blind to appreciate that without throwing up.
Apr 04, 2007 (7:46 am)
Yeah ... I agree that this generation isn't as attractive as previous ones. Many people I know still find the design stunning but, for the first time, I've made cosmetic modifications to a car that I owned -- I added the AC Schnitzer rear spoiler, and I think it really makes the car.
I didn't do anything to my E46 M3 though.
Here are some pics with the spoiler:
Some of the photos make the car look a bit ill-proportioned. That's mainly due to the fact that I photographed the car up close with more of a Macro lens. The car is currently in the shop getting a 1" drop via some H&R springs.
Most of the time I don't care because I'm behind the wheel and not standing outside the car, but sometimes I do notice. And sometimes I think they "almost" got it right too ...
You can't really compare it to an Aston though, at least the Vantage, because it's not a 2+2. I guess you can compare it on the basis of it being a GT, but I feel you have to lump 2 seaters in the same category and the Aston is just not compelling enough over the F430 or the 911 GT3.
But then looking at the upcoming E90 M3 (photos were released within the last week) I'm starting to question BMW's direction as well. I was kinda hoping for a good M3 to move to after they'd gotten the bugs out.
Though I do still find *most* of the M6 visually very applealing given the Genre (check out some of the other GT 2+2's out there and you'll see what I mean, though one company I thought solved the problem well was Infiniti with their G35.)
Infinti solved everything pretty well, except for the interior that is ... what did they do, copy an 80's AIWA boombox? And then they messed the whole thing up with the new G37 ... it looks like a cross between a Tiburon and something ...
Where are the designs going these days??? Maybe it is time to go back to something that they've been making for 40 years -- the 911. Call it modernism or cutting edge or even give your design strategy a name like "flame surfacing", what ever you want but the E46 was definitely a stunning car and very modern at the time.
Still, the M6 is a wonderful car to drive, and though I didn't consider an Aston or a Bentley but I have driven both and prefer the M6, at least behind the wheel, to any other high performance GT car. But having owned both the E60 M5 and E63 M6, I'd say keep the sedan unless you really only want two doors (this is me) or really, really love the M6's design (I like it ... and am starting to love it, but it sounds like you don't )
My wife loves this car, and sometimes I get it in my head that it's ugly ... but then when I occasionally see one on the street I think WOW. I think it's just different, and takes some getting used to. It might very well be a beautiful, in a very unconventional way, car. That said, it could also be ugly in a very conventional way.
About the bloating ... it's just the genre. It's a big GT 2+2. There's only so much you're going to be able to do to make a big car that accomodates 4 passengers with a nice trunk. The 612 Scaglietti (>4000 pounds) and the Continental GT (>5000 pounds) are like this too. I'm curious to see what Porsche does with the Panamera.
My history of cars in the past 3 years has been that of competing luxury/practicality. I went from a 2005 M3 to a 2006 X5 4.8is, to a 2006 M5 to a 2007 M6. Now I'm considering taking my own advice and getting that Porsche GT3 and throwing practicality out the window.
Unfortunately I need extra room from time to time and I can't convince my wife to get a big car so I can have a small one (no would I want to ... she's happy). Having more than 2 cars in San Francisco is a horrible siuation unless you're filthy rich, and even then ...good luck! I'm a man of some means, but even though I could afford to stable a third car, I'm not crazy. I was looking to buy a place in SOMA last month and for over a million dollars I only got two parking spots ... and after my car was parked there was about 2 inches between my car and the next one.
When I bought it the M6 seemed to be the best combination of size/luxury/performance on the market in a coupe, and I still think it has no rivals. I do like this car!!! But that doesn't mean I don't have some stuff to say about it.
#23 of 30 OK, you're right I'm wrong !!!
Apr 25, 2007 (9:32 am)
Sorry spiritinthesky et al for my ridiculously stupid defense of the M6. I got rid of it and got a Carrera 4S, and I now it all makes sense. The car is absolutely stunning and I wouldn't go back to the M6 for all the bratwurst in bavaria.
And how are you all right, let me count the ways:
1) it's a blast to drive
2) the styling is fantastic
3) 40 years of constant refinement is not a bad thing ... we get the benefit of having an "evolved" car.
4) it's a blast to drive
5) 997 is a great luxury car
6) Gas mileage is great
7) Insurance is 80 bucks cheaper a month
8) It's a blast to drive
9) It's a blast to drive
My words of advice, get one if you can live without the back seats and the trunk space.
There are a couple of things that it would be nice to see in the 997, Bluetooth cell phone and Auxilary input for audio devices, but I don't use the phone much in the car anyway and the ability to play WMA/Mp3 files in the Bose System (which sounds great, by the way) is a good workaround.
For those of you looking to pick up an M6, get an M5 instead ... if you are going to take on the extra weight then you might as well have the extra space. If you want a convertible, save the 55k and just get a Boxster or spend a bit more for a C4S cab.
The Porsche AWD system is astounding and it improves the balance and stability of the car while only adding minimal weight. Not only that but it pulls 0.99g in the turns instead of 0.97g like the Carerra S.
Forget about the M6, unless you're in love with it. Besides, P-cars are better for the environment.
Again, ... sorry for all the BS. I'm fairly young still, and like a young wine I haven't mellowed yet.
#24 of 30 Re: OK, you're right I'm wrong !!! [kimchimofo]
May 04, 2007 (1:24 pm)
I'm guessing you are way too young to remember the TV show "Laugh-In". There was a regular skit in which a news commentator (Rosanne Rosanadana) would go off the deep end about why a previous news story was nuts, crazy, wrong, etc. Like, "I don't know why everyone is swearing about vacuum cleaners...". After 60 seconds or so of monologue, the anchor would finally interupt and point out that the previous news story was about the "Hoover Dam", not "Damn Hoovers". To which she would sigh and reply, "Oh. Nevermind".
I hope you enjoy your 911 C4S. You seem to change expensive cars more frequently than I uncork $40 bottles of wine.
But, just for the record, I took out a C4S Cab while my C2S was in getting new rear tires installed a few weeks ago. Exceptional car, but I still prefer the lighter feel, more nimble and quicker RWD than AWD version. I think you could toss a coin and find half of Porsche enthusiasts on one side and half on the other regarding AWD vs. RWD. Turbo vs. GT3. Cab vs. Coupe. Base vs. S. The beauty is, there's one for everybody. Enjoy yours.