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SUVs Jeep Liberty and Jeep Liberty Diesel Jeep Liberty/Liberty Diesel Brakes
74 messages, Last post on Oct 05, 2009 at 1:22 PM
You are in the Jeep Liberty and Jeep Liberty Diesel Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & tidester
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Keep an eye out and see which SUV's or Trucks (imports) start installing rear drum brakes instead of rear rotor and caliper brakes. It is widely known that drum brakes are more "mpg" friendly, but lack the stopping power of rear rotor/caliper style brakes. I am wondering if efforts of making a better braking system has accidently invited additional heat. Weight, momentum and size determines the style of braking system, this according to most mechanical engineers. Drum brakes are less costly. They worked OK during the 1950's and 60's when cars were iron tanks with huge engines. So what's so different now, only body shape and lighter materials. Lets go back to rear drum brakes. Any retro-fitted drum brakes out there that I could swap out with my rear brakes. Maybe others might be interested also. John
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Replying to: john81 (Jan 07, 2006 12:30 pm) Steve, Host
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 07, 2006 1:51 pm) Now, the rotor is exposed to the elements, road salts and rocks. I am trying to find if this situation exists. Ok, take an ironing board, put some water on it and then slide a hot iron over the wet spot. Steam is created and the iron slides across the ironing board. So, when water is heated to a steam state, it becomes a lubricant (of sorts) and reduces surface friction. Does this happen with rotor/caliper brakes in wet weather? John |
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Replying to: john81 (Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm) Maybe someone over in Stop here! Let's talk about brakes can expound, but I don't why there'd be any difference. Steve, Host
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 08, 2006 4:26 pm) Can you change the "temper" of the (rotor surface) outside laminate (which makes contact with the brake pads)? I found an old rotor and discovered the interior is not solid. Rotors warp from heat or the tempering of the steel in isolated areas. Even front rotors have problems with heat, warping and causing ball joints to fail. I have noticed this for some 20 years. I had a 1981 Dodge truck that was famous for bad rotors, bearings and ball joints. I have to believe its the vendor or there is an monopoly of bad technology in which the car manufacturers are forced to purchase from. I can't believe that everyone suffers from just caliper calibration problems. Look at all the recalls, even dating back to the 1980's about brakes. I have to conclude that all rotor brake products were defective, but its "theoretical" functionality and performance "trump'd" its failure quotient. Rotors are a "consumable item", which means they are suppose to be replaced. I would like to check the specifications standards for rotors, say made in 1985 and rotors made now. Are the "spec's" the same between the two or have changes been made since then. Can a caliper brake pads "weld" themselves to the rotor? This may be an extreme situation, but even if welding does not occur, look at the extreme temperatures which change the chemical temper of the steel surfaces. I have to thank you guys at edmunds.com/forum. Everyone can't be crazy if we suspect our brakes are bad. Then the only conclusion I have to draw, its a design flaw. John
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Replying to: john81 (Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm) In the case of fabric, liquid water (and steam) will remain trapped in the fabric providing a more or less steady supply of steam under the iron. The metal in your brakes is nonpermeable so any liquid water or steam is very quickly expelled. tidester, host
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Replying to: tidester (Jan 08, 2006 6:50 pm) Rotors in contact with metal brake pads goes along this same principle. This may be a monentary event, until the metal contacts exceed the temperature limits of water and it all evaporates away as steam. So, it steam is generated, we are talking the temperature of boiling point, or 100 degrees C. Now, what are the upper temperature limits in which a rotor can withstand? I am sure many people, if under severe braking have not bothered to check their rotors if such an event happened. They just keep driving. So, can rotors reach 1000 degree's. Smoking brakes reflect a breakdown of the hydraulic system and fluid gets on the hot metal. At 1000 degrees, hydraulic fluid is quite flammable. That's why hydraulic lines are metal instead of rubber (or should be metal). Not only worn brakes, but worn gaskets or seals in brake lines could rupture from the radiated heat. Anyone who has welded their brake pads to the rotor, I would be interested what temperature reading that would be. Maybe exceeding 2000 degrees? All these things are possible. John |
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I have an '03 Limited with 33,500 miles. I had my brakes checked at a good shop and the mechanic said it looked as though they haven't even been broken in yet-yes he showed me too. I don't think my driving habits are any worse or better than anyone else. Why are mine in such great shape and others with less miles are having trouble--no noises at all-just solid braking. It is got to be more than driving habits too. I live in a four season climate. -"Lucky Liberty"
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Replying to: rreidt (Jan 08, 2006 7:36 pm) I think it would be a good idea, like you said, the technician showed you the brakes. Like a doctor visit, have some visual idea what is happening under the car when you slam on the brakes. I don't know of any service shop who would invite customers into the work area, like on a guided tour to examine what is wrong with their car. Unfortunately, what most customers sees is their bill, with the prospect that the problem will reoccur. Doctor technician conference - Good idea? John
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