Last post on Mar 14, 2013 at 8:16 AM
You are in the Cadillac CTS/CTS-V
What is this discussion about?
Cadillac CTS-V, Cadillac CTS, Sedan
Feb 07, 2007 (6:14 pm)
Try a number starting at under $40K.
Peolpe seem to forget that while GM could build a BMW 5 series, their whole goal is to do what Hyundai is to Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, and simmilar brands these days. Making 80%-90% of the same car for 2/3 of the price.
Why pay silly money for a 5, a GS, or a E, when you can spend 10-20K less and get a car that drives almost as well plus costs a fraction to maintain. So much less that you might consider actually buying it instead of leasing it.
Oh - I saw $299 leases on the 2006 models the last time I was in the Cadillac dealership. Payments to *own* a CTS were about the same as a lease on a 5 series - or very close to it.
#545 of 2880 Re: The new CTS. . . [markcincinnati]
Feb 07, 2007 (7:49 pm)
New Cadillacs have a bumper-to-bumper, 6 year, 100,000 warrantee.
I'm 6'2" and one of the shorter and thinner ones in the family. I haven't tried recent ferrin cars, but I didn't fit well in the old ones. Most Japanese headrests would hit me in the back, and older Benzes didn't have enough headroom in the front and no foot room in the rear. Size is Important. I was about to add something snotty but I won't.
Don't you think most premium car sales are based on snob appeal? Sometimes disguised as buying "quality."
If you visit Cadillacowners.com, most of the traffic is young guys with CTS's. I would call it a guy's car, but the 08 is certainly more feminine in appearance.
Take a look at Mercedez-benz-usa.com; the horror stories of lemons and bad service are almost unbelievable.
Feb 07, 2007 (8:40 pm)
Wow! OK, one thing at a time.
Cadillac is NOT Hyundai. Cadillacs are not 80% to 90% of the same car at 2/3 the price.
Is a Chrysler 300C AWD with all the toys 80% to 90% of an Audi A8 or a Mercedes S class? Well it is probably 1/2 the price and about the same size. But the 300C, nice as it is, is not in the same automotive class as the others.
The CTS is in a class (currently) that is aimed at the premium ENTRY LEVEL Euro and Japanese sporting sedans: think A4, 3, G, C etc. Its relative size being close to a BMW 5 does not make it a Luxury Performance Car any more than the hemi in the 300 makes it a ultra luxury performance car, size notwithstanding.
I want this to be so, but that doesn't make it so.
Silly money? There are thousands of BMW 5's sold in the US every month. Audi has just finished another up year, and so on. Lexus sells hundreds of thousands of cars, about 75% of them in the US.
The cars -- like the 5 or the A6 do cost $5 to $10 thousand or more dollars than a CTS generally.
But the STS, not the CTS is the car in the LPS class.
A well equipped STS w/AWD overshoots $59,000 by about one Yugo.
The CTS large as it may be isn't YET in the LPS class. It is a respectable wannabe. I re-read the new write up about the CTS, it is very desirable, more masculine than its predecessor would be my personal take, more attractive to the male of the species. The availability of a manual transmission, like BMW is a clue. The Audi A4 and BMW 3 can be had with a stick. Only the 5 series Bimmer in the LPS class can be so equipped.
The CTS is priced and marketed to be the "more better" BMW 3 series -- and if it can beat the value proposition of the German, it will win a profitable share of customers -- perhaps some of them away from BMW.
The issue, may be, for a time, an age issue. The Cadillac CTS like all the family still driven by folks above the target age of any car company. This is changing for Cadillac and that is a good thing.
The XLR, hmmm, I've not ever seen one of them driven by a man or woman with "their own hair" if you get my drift.
And, I do believe that the CTS, SRX, XLR and STS cars are able to be considered in the same breath as many ferrin' cars. The danger lies in making a class leap.
If the CTS is able to compete with the BMW 5 in performance and beat the pants off it in value that is a good thing. However, there is scant current evidence that the CTS can do this.
But the upcoming CTS if priced right (however you acquire yours) ought to give one pause when considering a more expensive BMW 335 or A4/S4 -- but then again there's that pesky newly announced C class Mercedes which seems to just ooze quality. And even Mercedes horrible track records are pretty much out of the realm of current events.
The public has selective memory. After all, Mercedes, somewhat like Cadillac has a reputation that seems, somehow to overcome even the most shrill shrieks of its unreliability. Sure enough, the Merc is now climbing up the reliability ladder.
Cadillac MAY have been more reliable, but it was also seen and widely reported (as if saying it made it so) as a higher quality vehicle. Quality, reliability and durability are three separate but related traits. People at this price point often buy quality, for they lease for such a short term that durability isn't too much of an issue and well, reliability of any of these cars means, fundamentally, one visit to the dealership every 10 - 15,000 miles (except for Infiniti which still demands to see you at least once every 7,500 miles.)
A 0% Interest Cadillac CTS that was sold to you for $30,000 would be $500 per month for 60 months. The maintenance, were you a 15K mile per year person would be scary as would the repairs (although the 100K warranty obviates this for the most part.) BMW on the other hand is free maint for 50K miles and you only need to keep it 36 months, so you are always driving a new car. The BMW lease, typically is much lower than any American car lease and well, the payments to own that CTS (that is about the same as the 5 series) are not an apples to apples comparison.
Equip the Cadillac, if possible, with similar packages and options as you can the Bimmer, then run the numbers.
The BMW will be over $51K the way I would want one. The Cadillac would be over $40K. The Cadillac for 36 months on a buy would be over $1,000 per month at 0% interest. The BMW at some number under $55K would be less than $600 during much of the buying year and always under $700 per month -- for 36 months. To get the CTS to $500 per month would mean extending the payments to at least 80 months!
This is not a definition of VERY CLOSE TO IT, is it?
Compare the CTS to the A4, the 335, the IS or ES Lexus, the G35 from Infiniti, the C class from Mercedes -- then see where the value proposition lies.
The theory goes the Cadillac should have the lower or lowest TCO (total cost of ownership), but now that the cars we are comparing the CTS to are in its same class (Premium Entry Level Luxury Sporting Sedan), the CTS just seems so damn much money (at present.)
This impression is further exacerbated by the fact that the 2008 Cadillac will be brought to 2005 content and feature level when directly compared with its German and Japanese competition. And, damn if it isn't so, Audis new A4 will be hitting the showrooms just about when the CTS hits, ditto the new C class from Mercedes and the beat goes on.
So yes, the new CTS is a quantum leap and probably will be a great car (it already is on paper.) It is more masculine than the outgoing car, more aggressive but also more emotional, less angular in some ways -- it will probably stir both genders to buy on looks alone.
This honeymoon effect will last at most 6 months. The inherent goodness of the car will certainly propel sales. In some respects I would be happy to graduate to an American car even if I were merely trading in my 2005 vintage German for a 2008 American with most of the same features I had grown used to in my then 3+ year old German car.
My point is not to dis the Cadillac, it is to point out the short shelf life of cars and features. Cadillac, to set the world standard again needs to bring its cars out in the same time frame as the other guys.
They are, IMHO, late to the game in many of the features and functions they are pounding their chests over. Soft lighting, foot well lighting -- what next a passenger side mirror that dips when the car is put into reverse? My 1980's vintage German car did that for pity's sake.
Rear heated seats? A tilt and telescoping steering wheel, lane departure warning a back up camera, front and rear parktronic a 6 or more speed autoshift that rev matches. Voice command of "everything?" ABS+brake Assist plus ESP plus, plus plus -- they say the American cars will have these things by 2012. I had ABS in 1986. My buddy had it in his 1985 BMW.
#547 of 2880 Re: ... [markcincinnati]
Feb 07, 2007 (9:05 pm)
Sorry, I pay cash for my cars. I bow to your superior experience.
My only used car, the 74 Fleetwood I bought in college, had tilt/telescoping wheel, and you couldn't hear or feel the engine at idle. The 70's Eldorado had an extra door unlatcher for the rear seat passengers--an actually useful piece of one-up-manship.
Remember BMW thinks idrive is great engineering.
#548 of 2880 Re: ... [markcincinnati]
Feb 07, 2007 (9:17 pm)
Wow.. where to begin...
The 2008 CTS *will be* 80-90% of a 5 series for 2/3 the price. That's going to be a cold, hard fact. And it's exactly the same strategy that Honda, Toyota, and now Hyundai used against GM for decades. Is it surprizing that GM might finally be learning how to play the game?
The CTS may be entry-level for Cadilllac in the U.S., but it's crystal clear that they have skipped the compact segment entirely. They sell the BTS in Europe, which *is* 3 series/C class sized. So your argument falls flat as a Swedish Pancake. Isn't the internet great? Takes seconds to pull up GM's European sites.
BMW and Mercedes are terrible in reliability because of one major thing. It costs 2-4 TIMES the money to fix the same repairs. Nothing you're going to say is going to change the fact that at the end of the year, you've not only repaired the car more times on average, but you paid blood to do so. 5-6 THOUSAND dollar transmissions. Brake jobs that cost over $1000. The list goes on and on...
Many of their current owners are less than enamoured and that's why Lexus, Accua, Infinity, and even Volvo are sucking sales away. Wealthier, conservative types which make up about 75%+ of their demographic prize being economical and reliable greatly. They all put being economical with their TIME even higher on the list. They want luxury and status but that's a good value as well. And having your 5 series in the shop every few months isn't anyone's idea of spending your time wisely - especially if you are missing work to do so.
A 0% Interest Cadillac CTS that was sold to you for $30,000 would be $500 per month for 60 months. The maintenance, were you a 15K mile per year person would be scary as would the repairs (although the 100K warranty obviates this for the most part.) BMW on the other hand is free maint for 50K miles and you only need to keep it 36 months, so you are always driving a new car.
I had to quote this because it's just such a badly constructed argument that it'd get you a D in any debate or logic class. We're comparing a CTS being *bought outright* via one of GMs great financing deals - with a 6 year/100K mile warranty versus a three year *lease* of a BMW with a 3 year/50K mile warranty that you yourself admit you want to toss as soon as the lease is over.
It's not apples to oranges. It's apples to a surfboard it's so far off.
Talk about penny-wise and pound foolish. The amount of money you're throwing away on the BMW is enough to buy you a whole new engine in the CTS and then some. Except - the engine is covered for the duration of *two* BMW leases so that's not going to happen.
When you are done with TWO BMW leases you own... nothing. The CTS, you paid the same and you have a 8-10K car you can resell. That buys a boatload of repairs or is a nice trade-in to drop $150-$200 a month off of your *next* car's payment.
Or, lease the CTS for $300 a month and pay half as much. And yes, I did see a $300 a month lease on a CTS - I'll even get you a picture if you don't believe me.
#549 of 2880 Re: ... [plekto]
Feb 07, 2007 (9:56 pm)
I saw a survey of German car owners last year. They rated German cars as most desirable, MB at the top of the heap. They also rated MB and VW as the worst ownership experience. (Of course, it didn't say how many actually owned foreign makes, so the statistics may be distorted, but there are other German car brands).
2 of the 3 MB's I've driven were the old unturboed diesels, which distorts my perception, but I really think snob appeal drives most of their sales.
#550 of 2880 Re: ... [markcincinnati]
Feb 08, 2007 (4:16 am)
I honestly enjoyed reading your posts but like plekto said the content of it isn't true. You slip in some smiles about how nice the CTS, is but at the same time you are reaching around with a knife stabbing it in the back.
The fact remains the Bimmer's, Audi's, Mercedes, you love and adore so much don't come close in reliability, warranty, cost of repairs. Gosh damn, the free maintence isn't free. I think you are smarter than that. It's built into the price. Nothing is free in the automobile industry. I agree the Germans and the Japanese, built superior quality cars in the 80's and 90's and had features you couldn't get on domestics. However we are living in 2007, and I don't see any must have features on the 08' Mercedes C class, BMW 335i/5 series, Audi A4/A6, Lexus IS 350, that Cadillac doesn't laready offer. The Mercedes C-class you love so much doesn't even have a better interior than the new Pontiac G8 that will be out this fall. If I did a comparo side by side
(readerreader, help me out with this one pal with a pic) you should say boy Rocky, you are right.
Mercedes new C-class lacks the luxury of a ELLPS if you ask me. What distinctive feature does the BMW 335i or 5 series has that the CTS, doesn't have ????? The i-drive ? I'll pass !!!!!!!! The 335i also has standard vinyl/pleather seats which is a joke.
The CTS, has enviromental friendly ventilated seats. Only the Lexus IS 350 to the best of my knowledge has that feature. The CTS, by far has the most upscale interior of the ELLPS. The only one that comes close in luxury is the IS350, but I can even find cost cutting inside that vehical. One example is the faux metal on the sport suspension model on the IS 350. I also find it amusing you have to either be a kid or a midget to fit in the rear passenger compartment Audi, might offer a great interior but the color of the wood and design don't go hand and hand IMHO. The Audi, also lacks the neccessary performance to be a ELLPS sedan. you have to drop over $50 large ones to get a S4 and even at that price level it lacks the features of the CTS. The Acura TL, was gadget filled back in 2004 but 3 years later it's gadgets are found on most other cars. The 2009' TL, could raise the bar once again. You also mentioned the other brands will have new cars out when the 08' CTS hits the market....WHAT ????? The 335i just came out this fall, the Mercedes C class will be out next fall and as we've seen it's not in the same league as the 08' CTS, the Lexus IS 350 came out in 2006 and I've seen no plans for it except for a IS-F 500 model that will get it's ass whipped by the 09' 550-600 hp. CTS-V, Audi A4 came out new for 06' and the G35 just came out this last fall. I don't see how you can justify how the 08' will be outdated when released this fall ????
If anything all the others will be outdated when the CTS, comes out this fall. I'd like to know what features your beloved Germans have over the CTS ????? Are you going to boast about how that plastic arm pushes the seat belt forward for the 335i driver ? Geeez....
So when you factor in warranty, reliability, quality, gadgetology, fuel economy w/(regular gasoline) you can't find a better ELLPS sedan on the market for the money IMHO. I think the projected 70+K annual sales will be the judge.
#551 of 2880 cincinatti
Feb 08, 2007 (6:08 am)
You are way off base by saying the '08 CTS just caaught up to 2004 European cars. That is a complete lie. If the CTS was available in 2004 it would've been head an shoulders above the competition. The current 3 series wasnt even out and the "uplevel" engine for the last generation 328 was a 225hp I-6. There are tons of features available on the 2006 3 series and '07 G35 that werent available on the old cars. The last gen G35's interior was a joke and the G35 offered great value, but little in the way of class exclusive features. You are giving the Europeans way too much credit and are confusing their current offerings with their offerings of 4 years back. The CTS is wholly competitive with every recently introduced entry luxury sedan, including the 2008 C class. It is way beyong playing catch up with 4 year old models.
Feb 08, 2007 (6:17 am)
I hope you are correct.
Again, I am planning on placing the CTS on my list -- but try as it might it is unlikely to show up over on the LPS board here on edmunds. It is unlikely to show up being tested against a BMW 5; yet, if it is, it will be one of those comparos that arise from time to time that tests two vehicles that are not generally considered in the same class. A test including the other entry level contestants is likely.
Even a test that includes a Toyota Avalon is certainly within the realm of possibility.
The entire point of discussing the new 2005 CTS badged as a 2008 is to simultaneously compliment and critique Cadillac. I applaud the evidence that suggests Cadillac is or has already gotten the message.
I am somewhat perplexed why additional differentiators weren't engineered into the car. It will differentiate itself on looks and price, I guess. Its announced features and content bring it to par -- but the other guys will either refresh or replace within one MY or concurrent with the CTS's coming to market.
Well equipped the CTS will climb to the mid to high forties? I say this based on the STS, which comes on with an attractive price but requires (apparently) the addition of 5 figures worth of options to be performance competitive with a 5 series.
The BMW 5 series is the car that Cadillac trots out in Car and Driver's editor for a day affairs. I have been lucky enough to participate and here is what happens. A base automatic equipped BMW 5 series is pitted against an STS optioned to the point that it has a sport suspension, magnaride, plus sized wheels and tires and UHP tires.
The BMW, again a base model, is equipped with all season tires and wheels that are 1" smaller and without sport package. Both cars have navigation systems and leather interiors, etc.
The Cadillac STS V6 is put through its paces then up next same thing with the BMW. After doing this routine 4 times, I concluded that the Cadillac performed better. The Cadillac and the BMW were comparable in price (MSRP.)
Next up, go on line and configure both cars then press the finance button. The BMW was less money per month, by far, and the maintenance was "included" in the price.
On the other side of the race track, the CTS, similarly equipped (up scale in the performance bits) is being put through its paces against a Lexus ES. Again price parity is reached and the CTS outperforms the Lexus.
The pricing here at MSRP is, again, close. The leasing equation favors the Lexus. Lexus sells some 400,000 cars annually, over 75% of them here. They are very good at figuring residual and hence they can charge less for their cars in the way most folks acquire them.
On another point somewhere above, why would you pay cash for a car that can be had for 0% financing for up to 72 months? And the argument that you have something at the end of the term is true, but it is the TCO that needs to be evaluated to determine if what you have at the end of the lease will have saved you money. And, you will have to determine the opportunity cost of NOT always having a car less than 4 MY old.
There are reasons to lease and I'd be the first to admit it isn't for everyone. But the fact that these entry level and LPS level cars are, in the majority, leased is just that a fact. The reasons may well be sub-venting by the mfgr -- but just like 0% financing, who cares if it can lower YOUR TCO?
The new CTS may or may not end up on someone's shopping list alongside a BMW 5 or Mercedes E or Audi A6 or Lexus GS or Infiniti M, etc. If that is true, I would suspect the shopper would simply wander across the showroom floor to see what the STS can offer.
I hope your final statement: "for the money," is accurate. And if Cadillac sub-vents the lease or discounts or whatever they need to do to improve the value proposition, you will probably be proven to be correct.
I think we are actually more in violent agreement than in disagreement.
The key area where we disagree is in thinking the CTS will be pitted agains the BMW 5, Mercedes E and the rest of the LPS usual suspects.
It's not Timex vs Rolex, but it isn't Rolex vs Rolex by a long shot. Perhaps in keeping the theme, it is Tissot vs Rolex. They both keep time, but one shopping for a Rolex is probably not likely to go for the Tissot instead even though it keeps time as well as the more expensive piece.
If the CTS is able to rival my A6 or the then current BMW 5, I will applaud it. I seriously doubt that either of these Germans are too concerned about the CTS eating into their middle child's sales.
Now, the CTS vs a 335 or an A4, that may give these guys some concern -- for in its class the CTS (on paper at least) appears to be "more." To me, it also appears that it might be a bit pricey when it comes down to the "normal" way these things are acquired.
I can't wait to test this new Cadillac -- I want to want one -- no really, I do.
Feb 08, 2007 (6:26 am)
I said that the upcoming CTS will rise to be on par with the 2005 versions of the LPS cars. The thread here is that some folks think the CTS will compete against the LPS cars and at present I think it will be classed with the entry level lux perf cars like the 3, A4, etc.
If a 2008 CTS was available in 2004 it would have been head and shoulders above its direct competition, the Bimmer 3, the Audi A4, the Mercedes E, the Infiniti G, etc -- I agree.
The premise is that the 2008 CTS has adopted the features of the 2005 era LPS cars and that that somehow gives it the street creds to compete with the 2008 BMW 5, Audi A6, and so on.
My contention is the new CTS leapfrogged itself and is coming to market with 2005 era LPS content. I did not suggest, or if I did I retract it, that the 2008 CTS innovated features from 2004-2005 engineered entry level lux performance cars. It has taken features and content from the LPS cars of that vintage.
It has broken no new ground that would suggest it, with this transformation, can now compete with the LPS cars such as the 5. Other than roominess, it just doesn't have enough to differentiate it from the last generation of LPS cars.
It, hopefully for Cadillac, will have enough content to be seen on-par with the then new B8 A4 and the updated 335i and AWD version. The new G35 is already here and will, as usual, keep raising the bar too.
Cadillac leapfrogs itself, good. Cadillac may well be leapfrogged within one MY by the other guys (before it is ready or able to leap again) -- it keeps playing a game of catch up.
However, therefore, notwithstanding -- it IS catching up.