Last post on Mar 14, 2013 at 8:16 AM
You are in the Cadillac CTS/CTS-V
What is this discussion about?
Cadillac CTS-V, Cadillac CTS, Sedan
Jul 02, 2007 (6:39 pm)
I agree that most folks do NOT buy a fully loaded model of their object of desire.
My point is that base price is virtually useless in determining the typical price.
The apples to apples comparison pretty much eliminates the content for $ discussion and allows us to make a level playing field eval.
If the fully loaded CTS compares "favorably" to the fully loaded 3 or G or A4, or whatever Entry Level LPS car it is up against, it ought to be a winner.
What is actually acquired, like the phrase "your mileage may vary" is not unimportant, but Cadillac needs to come in at a price that is seen to represent "high value," not just high content or high anything else you might care to look at.
Folks seem to be quite willing to pay $50K for a BMW 3 series -- they have the shortest shelf life according to our local Bimmer dealer. This is not meant to dispute the claim that the 328 outsells the 335, etc. The A6 3.2 outsells the more expensive A6 4.2 by a wide margin, too.
The 300HP AWD CTS will probably NOT be the high volume model -- but we do need to know how it stacks up against the high zoot 335 and the other ELPS flavors.
At this point, having tested both the '07 Gx and 335x cars, the one to beat would certainly seem to be the G35x. The CTS if it is $5K - $9K more will NOT seem to represent high value, despite the CTS's 5 series wheelbase similarities.
The G35x also blows the Mercedes C class AWD models away -- if performance and content trump the three pointed star on the hood.
Cadillac's CTS for 2008 is, for me, the MOST interesting and possibly desirable car to come out in the last couple of years (at its alleged content and price point.) If the balance of price and content does not come to be, it will have an uphill battle.
The cars on the market from all parts of the globe continue to improve apace -- hopefully this spanky new CTS will not be state of the art circa 2005, unless it is thus at a nice price break.
I am all over the place with the new ELPS cars, especially American models, since they seem to have about the same content as my 2005 Audi A6 3.2 (which is nearly fully optioned -- and was MSRP of $53,286.) A 2008 CTS AWD with the 300HP motor at a monthly lease price less than $650 (36 months and 15K miles/year) would be tempting, though, quite tempting.
Fun and confusing at the same time? Yep.
#1002 of 2880 Re: Price [pucks]
Jul 02, 2007 (7:05 pm)
The G is NOT much smaller than the CTS. While we do not have the interior specs on the 08 CTS yet, we do know the new car's length is almost identical to the outgoing car. The track is a little wider, but generally I think interior volume will not change dramatically. Anyway, the dimensions on the G are as follows:
Headroom with sunroof 39.1 inches (fr)/37.2 inches (rear)
Hip room 55.1 inches (fr)/53.7 inches (rear)
Legroom 43.9 inches (fr)/34.7 inches (rear)
Shoulder room 55.6 inches (fr)/55.2 inches (rear)
The 07 CTS:
Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear
As you can see, interior dimensions are comparable for these two cars. The G will definitely be considered alongside the CTS and therefore must be priced competitively with that car. Another competitor will be the TL - a full-featured car that tops out at around $37k and is dimensionally similar to the G and CTS (I checked to be sure).
For those interested, the 3-series' dimension are:
Headroom (Front)38.5 (Rear)37.5
Legroom (Front)41.5 (Rear)34.6
Shoulder Room (Front)55.4 (Rear)55.1
Smaller, but not by much...
My point is that the CTS MUST be priced to compete with these cars, because it will invariably be considered alongside them in terms of content, performance & price.
Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.
Jul 03, 2007 (4:22 am)
Price an STS fully optioned.
Not too many moons ago folks here on Edmunds said "pricing the STS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible."
Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding: although the STS's MSRP has exited into the vacuum of space, the subvented, discounted and "OTD" costs have been somehow addressed via generous programs, discounts and lease subventing that is, to this day, going on a full throttle.
Perhaps a $47K CTS will be "priced" OTD more -- shall we say -- down to earth?
One can hope.
Cadillac, however, does want to get to the premium prices with all deliberate speed. I think Cadillac would love the CTS to be considered by the majority of folks as a 5 series (true LPS) alternative.
This one car alone will not likely make this transformation -- but it IS a good start.
#1004 of 2880 Size, Power, Etc. Re: Price [ortega]
Jul 03, 2007 (4:48 am)
“Dimensionally, the 2008 CTS is 191.6 inches (4766 mm) long, 72.5 inches (1841 mm) wide and 58 inches (1472 mm) in height. Wheelbase is 113.4 inches (2880 mm) with a front/rear track of 61.8 / 62.0 inches (1575 / 1585 mm).” – GM
[ 2008 ] Headroom (in / mm):
Rear: 37.2 = + 0.3
38.8 / 986
37.2 / 944
Legroom (in / mm):
Rear: 35.9 = + 0.3
42.4 / 1078
35.9 / 913
Shoulder room (in / mm):
Rear: 57.4 = 1.02 less !?!?!?
56.7 / 1441
57.4 / 1390
Hip room (in / mm):
Front: 55.1 = + 1.8
Rear: 54.1 = + 0.3
55.1 / 1400
54.1 / 1375
EPA passenger volume
(cu ft / L):
98 / 2775
“The 07 CTS:
Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear”
When I was comparing the Caddy STS to the M45 a while back, I found even the ( somewhat larger ) STS rear seat to be somewhat less spacious that I’d expected, particularly in leg room – and clearly not as large as the M45.
“Head room, front 38.70 (983)
Head room, rear 37.90 (963)
Shoulder room, front 58.60 (1488)
Shoulder room, rear 57.40 (1458)
Hip room, front 54.60 (1387)
Hip room, rear 55.60 (1412)
Leg room, front 42.60 (1082)
Leg room, rear 38.30 (973)”
I expect that the CTS will be arriving at dealers shortly after the 2008 STS – and once they are both available, I plan to test drive the V6 versions of each, back-to-back. ( I have driven the V8 STS on several occasions. ) The comparison of pricing & performance will prove interesting, I think. ( It looks right now like an STS V6, equipped as I’d probably buy w/1SC & PDQ MSRP = approx. $53.2K and invoice is $48.7K. )
[[ Edit: I'd like to add PCZ - at $1,600 MSRP. ]]
With the V6 in the STS now over 300 HP, adding the 6 speed automatic and weighing less than the STS V8s I have driven ( by 150 pounds or so – largely offsetting the NorthStar’s HP & TQ advantage, I’d think) this sounds worth looking at – and comparing to the top line V6 CTS.
We shall see.
Interested . . .
Jul 03, 2007 (6:11 am)
C&D tested the STS V6 in the current issue, the performance was impressive.
#1006 of 2880 Power \ TQ \ RPM
Jul 03, 2007 (8:30 am)
A GM description of this new V6 motor includes the following quotes:
“ . . .272 lb.-ft. (369 Nm) of torque at 5200 rpm.”
- and -
“The result is linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (maximum horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response and driveability.”
Has anyone seen a published Torque Curve for this motor?
5,200 RPM is a very high Torque peak – and I am wondering just how much credence to assign to the latter quote . . .
300+ HP from 3.6L is impressive, but I also need my Torque down low in the RPM range.
Torque addicted . . .
#1007 of 2880 pricing \ sales
Jul 03, 2007 (11:31 am)
“My point is that the CTS MUST be priced to compete with these cars, because it will invariably be considered alongside them in terms of content, performance & price.
Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.” – Ortega
And yet . . .
GM \ Caddy appears to be OK with the fact that STS and CTS sales continue to be ( way ) off – measured against last year. The CTS is off 38.7% - and the STS is off 46.8%. Large numbers, to me.
And 2006 was NOT a ** stellar ** year for the STS, certainly – or for the CTS. The STS was off 31% in June 2006 vs June 2005. And last June sales for the CTS were off over 14% compared with 2005 June sales.
Yet certainly in the case of the STS, the “Premium Pricing” ( IMHO ) that Caddy placed initially on the STS with the 2005 Model Year has been steadfastly maintained - in the face of what I see as rather dismal sales volume.
So, in light of this apparent pricing philosophy – I see the possibility of the ‘new’ 2008 CTS being priced higher than some expect. I think that it therefore IS possible we’ll see surprisingly high MSRPs. I do hope I am wrong.
Again: We’ll see.
The initial reports from GM were that the 2008 STSs would hit dealers in June. And it appeared that 2008 CTSs would follow not long after. Mine has not seen either one, as of this PM. ( 2008 SRXs, but no STSs and no CTSs. )
Waiting to see & drive & read sticker prices on production examples . . .
#1008 of 2880 Ray - CTS/STS
Jul 03, 2007 (2:59 pm)
Given that the CTS went on sale in Feb 03, you would expect the sales to decline, especially with a new model a few months away. The June YTD numbers are not near as bad as the percentages you quote. Sales grew every year through 05 and fell back a little last year. If they get the 08 out soon enough, they might even outsell last year.
I have no defense for the STS.
Cadillac has consistently said the base 08 will start in the low 30's. Given that the base model has leatherette, I can see it coming in at the 33-34 range base and topping out at in the 47-49 range.
Cadillac said late June for the STS and "fall" for the CTS. STS production started 6/11 according to reports, so you should see those very soon. CTS production starts either the 19th or 23rd of July, so they should be out by mid to late August.
Jul 03, 2007 (4:55 pm)
I tend to find your prediction tracks with mine. The CTS, regardless of what is done to move the cars out the door, will be in the upper $40's -- Cadillac wants to be the Premium entry level LPS and remain head held high within the LPS class.
One way to do this, of course, is to raise the price. The fact, hopefully, that a $47K CTS may be had for a low lease price is just the strategy apparently used by BMW and at least ONCE, in my case, Audi.
The phrase, that was then, this is now is not lost on me, but as I have related previously, we have two 2005 German cars, both with 36 month, 45K mile leases with almost no money out of pocket to get going. Her $47K Bimmer was $581/mo and my $53K Audi was $640/mo. In my case, I didn't even have a sec dep. We both have full maintenance too.
I have priced these American cars [repeatedly] with a desire to lease them. Apples to apples, the American cars (and many of the Japanese models) at that price per month are, relatively speaking, "strippies."
I am NOT a fan of outsourcing, but when an American "boy" like me spends $X/mo, and I can get an "entry level" STS or CTS or a fully loaded Infiniti, BMW or Audi, I cave and outsource my transportation overseas.
More's the pity.
Damn legacy costs.