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Sedans Luxury Lounge
21518 messages, Last post on Dec 05, 2009 at 10:07 AM
You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
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Replying to: houdini1 (May 13, 2008 4:32 am) So was their Jag, wasn't it? Just a small example of some of the RL issues: "Maybe we should have moved in with Mr. Acura, because at just over 33,000 miles, the left rear headrest wouldn't stay up, the power outlets were once again on the blink, the driver's-side washer-fluid nozzle needed realignment, and the navigation system was rebooting itself while in use." C&D hit Jag over the head right away because of a few "very minor glitches", and yet the RL which required many more unscheduled service visits got off much more easily. As I said, Jag is an easy target.
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Replying to: lexusguy (May 13, 2008 2:54 pm) You also have to remember that the C&D tests only involve one car and that can be a crapshoot. The CR ratings are much more comprehensive involving hundreds of cars, if not thousands, and that is where the RL beat the Jag. The Jag, however, was rated above average by CR.
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Replying to: houdini1 (May 13, 2008 3:18 pm) Agree, any magazine's long term test shouldn't determine whether a car will be reliable or not. I'm sure we all remember that BMW 3 series from the C&D comparison test that was such a lemon that it was literally undriveable and they had to use test data from an earlier example, and yet it still won the test. That car doesn't mean all 3s are horrible. To Acura's credit, they seem to have identified and fixed most of the RL's early issues. The same unfortunately cannot be said for Lexus and the GS AWD. Based on my own experience, I would say that buying a new Jag is far less risky than it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Problems can happen with a car from any brand, but reliability should no longer be a reason to not consider a Jag. |
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Replying to: lexusguy (May 12, 2008 10:43 pm) Risk buying a new Audi or BMW 
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Replying to: houdini1 (May 13, 2008 3:18 pm) I'm probably nearly as tired of repeating this as some of you are of reading it. However. . . hundreds/thousands? Please. The stupid form CR distributes takes a lot of time to fill out (in a society that seems to feel that it's too much trouble to use a turn signal). It's a seriously self-selected cohort (look it up) -- starts with pinheads (like me) who care only for efficiency (not like me) and goes on from there. The people who respond either: 1) need a hobby, or 2) have an axe to grind. Oh boy. Now, let's talk statistics. It's important to know (as you alluded) how big is the sample, as well as what drives the (coveted) solid red circle vs. the (dreaded) solid black one. Let's look at a few scenarios: 1) Solid red equals 90-100% and solid black equals 50-60%, pretty much like the ABCDF scoring system many of us fossils who still read CR grew up with. Solid black means you're driving a POS. 2) Solid red equals 98-100% and solid black equals 90-92% 3) Solid red equals 99.5%-100% and solid black equals 97.8% or lower. Then there's the number of samples thing. Twenty to thirty is generally accepted as statistically valid -- a hundred would be wonderful & thousands would be better yet. However, given the pain-in-the-ass factor of even filling the bloody survey out, I wouldn't be surprised if some less-used vehicles were being judged on some pretty damn small populations, and even the biggest ones may not be all that large. Oh, and then there's the "what's a problem?" thing. Some people think a miniscule dot in the finish is a problem and others blow off everything but a failure that leaves the car beside the road, dead. Properly done, "issues" would fall into several categories having to do with cosmetics, failure of a convenience feature or failure of a system that leaves the car immobile, and possibly more. Who knows? Who cares? Well, nobody knows, but I certainly (used to) care. I'm sick to death (as if it matters) of the implication that CR numbers mean much of anything at all, unless they disclose their statistical basis. They provide equally obscure stuff in other areas. They most assuredly don't in this particular one. Why?? Because it'd show that cars are so much better than they used to be that most of their dots are beyond useless. Sick. . . to. . .death. The brain-dead who take CR seriously deserve what they get, and I've gotten it in the past. No more.
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Replying to: cdnpinhead (May 13, 2008 6:20 pm) As a coincidence I just got a CR survey on line to complete. I have never completed one before or even seen one. I completed the survey on two cars that I own and it took less than 10 minutes. I was surprised it was so simple. I think you are way off on your sample numbers. I have an on line subscription to CR but not a hard copy subscription. They hounded me to complete the survey and I assume all their subscribers get the same treatment, but I could be wrong. I got 2 or 3 follow ups to complete the survey, so my guess is that they get thousands of responses. Of the 3 scenarios you presented I think #3 is probably the closest because I agree that all cars are much better than they were 10 years ago. Out of curiosity, how did you bet burned by CR? |
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Replying to: houdini1 (May 13, 2008 7:24 pm) Thanks for asking. Twice, CR highly recommended newly-introduced cars and threw them under the bus a couple of years later. Stupidly, I bought both. First was the Chrysler LH (Eagle, in my case) and second was the Lincoln LS. They couldn't have praised them any more highly at introduction, but when each went down the toilet a year or two later, there wasn't much discussion of their initial reviews. Plus which, the numbers really matter. I get the hard-copy survey every year and don't do the on-line thing (for whatever reason). It's a pain, and I can't help but think that the even-more-feeble-than-me folks don't fill it out unless they want to, for whatever reason. I realize that there are maybe 9 people who read CR who have a clue what sample size and truncation have anything to do with, but if the data were available, the car rags would probably translate it for the masses. I should live so long.
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Replying to: houdini1 (May 13, 2008 7:24 pm) Last I checked it was over a million people that responded to the survey. They also won't publish results unless they reach a certain number of responses, (I think its at least 100) which is why many cars have large holes in MY reports, and some aren't mentioned at all, like the A6 4.2 for example. Just not enough people. CR bases the better than average red dots and worse than average black dots as a comparison to the "average new car" for a particular model year. It would be lovely if instead they said "4% of 535i owners reported transmission problems" as they have all that data, but they wont. 2008's average new car has gotten pretty reliable, and most new cars have at least average reliability, so the usefulness of CR is rather questionable at this point, at least to new car buyers. I think used car buyers can still get some value out of the survey. |
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Replying to: cdnpinhead (May 13, 2008 7:36 pm) As the "Best Looker" (IMHO of course), I like the looks (which attracts you to a car in the first place). Who really cares what any of the rag editors think because they are not buying the car and neither will the tests CR does prove much regarding your pending purchase. NEVER BUY THE FIRST RELEASE. PERIOD. Then, let the test data and feedback filter in over the years as the REAL TESTERS (The ones with thick skin that had to have it first). AS TAGMAN says, sales figures are not the true guide but the TSB's and frequency of repair will give reliability. Then, check the forums...this one was recent regarding SC XF... The supercharged XF sold itself when I saw if for the first time. Unfortunately, it might sell itself again if Jaguar doesn’t address the steering vibration. For a still undetermined reason my XF shakes. As time goes on, you will get a way better idea of what you can expect from those early adopters.... It is most noticeable (and visible) in the steering wheel, but can also be felt in my seat as well. My dealer has tried everything they know how to do and it still shakes. Jaguar engineers say it’s a high performance car and vibration is to be expected. I say if they’re betting Jaguar’s future on this car, they might want rethink their position. You can rest assured Jaguar isn't the only mfg. that has gremlins on new models but the more sophisticated the tech, the more chance of problems. I have a prem Lux/porecelain/ivory,truffel/B&W/vision pkg. I am extremely happy with the car.......performance....looks...style...and the sound system is unbelievable...souuround sound at its finest. I did have 2 issues that have been resolved after 2 visits to the dealer. 1)sunroof motor had to be replaced and 2)park assist overhead console had a back connection.......... hmmmm both eletrical....sounds like the old lucas issues...lol Still very happy with the car. So, you really do not need to be a religious follower of ANY review source in the press. Conclusion...this girlfriend can date others for now... Regards, OW
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Replying to: bmlexus (May 02, 2008 1:31 pm) If , indeed, it is an internal fog light, then one is brighter than the other! Sorry to be way late again on this. Been really busy with work. Then for a while, the forums were blocked by the proxy. Anyway, there's only one rear foglight. That's why one is brighter than the other.
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