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Hybrid Vehicles Electric Vehicles Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons
1586 messages, Last post on Oct 23, 2009 at 4:19 PM
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Replying to: tpe (Aug 02, 2006 7:27 am) 
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Replying to: michael2003 (Aug 03, 2006 2:27 am) The ICE would almost immediately become obsolete. |
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Replying to: tpe (Aug 02, 2006 7:27 am) Any discussion involving the "cleanest" solution must include a discussion of the source of the electricity. I know there is a lot of emphasis in here regarding the use of renewables (predominately solar/wind) but the facts are these: Between 1993 and 2004, the amount of electrical energy produced in the U.S. from 'other renewables' (principally solar and wind; not including hydro) increased by 18.6% (from 76,213 to 90,408 gigawatt/hours). Over that same period of time, the total amount of electrical energy produced in the U.S. increased by 24.2% (from 3,197,191 to 3,970,555 gigawatt/hours). http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat1p1.html Conclusions to be drawn: despite two terms of the most 'renewable friendly' administration as you'll likely to get, despite numerous advancements in renewable technology, despite ever rising energy costs and worldwide increases in demand of petroleum products, the % of electrical energy the U.S. produces from renewables has gone DOWN over the last 11 years (from 2.4% to 2.3%). Over that same period of time, the amount of electricity produced from fossil fuels (coal, petroleum, NG and other gases) has increased from 69.8% to 71.1%. So, my question is this: IS the 'cleanest' solution, given the CURRENT power production infrastructure, electricity?
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 03, 2006 5:33 am) In regards to the environment and electricity. Electricity at least has the potential to be generated in an environmentally friendly way. I suspect that the past 11 years are not representative of the current trend towards renewables. In that time the cost competitiveness of wind and solar has improved significantly and should continue to. Afterall, the sun and wind are always going to cost the same. The cost for electricity generated for natural gas and coal will continue to rise. Once the tipping point is reached the composition of where we get our electricity from should start to shift towards renewables. Even if that doesn't turn out to be the case at least we can produce our electricity from domestic sources.
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 02, 2006 4:58 am) "Plug-in hybrid." Current plug-in hybrids (e.g. a plugin Prius) have it backwards. Why do you want to carry around an entire drivetrain for your ICE, when you predominantly want to use electric? Direct electric drives are more efficient than an electric assist, plus dedicated electric generators that operate at a single rpm are much more efficient than automobile engines with their requirement for wide power bands. For extended trips where you don't want to stop to plug-in, take one of these: http://www.acpropulsion.com/Products/Range_extending_trailers.htm
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Replying to: tpe (Aug 03, 2006 6:29 am) "Electricity at least has the potential to be generated in an environmentally friendly way." Potentially? Sure. I'm just pointing out the facts AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE. Potentially, everybody within range of mass transit could be using it, rendering virtually all of this discussion moot. But let's deal with the real world. "I suspect that the past 11 years are not representative of the current trend towards renewables." So let's look at the 'current trend' (up to the total numbers for 2004 - I haven't seen the final numbers for '05): 2000 to 2001: 80,906 down to 77,985 (decrease of 3.7%) 2001 to 2002: 77,985 up to 86,922 (increase of 11.5%) 2002 to 2003: 86,922 up to 87,410 (increase of 0.6%) 2003 to 2004: 87,410 up to 90,408 (increase of 3.4%) Seems to be all over the place. Yes, it is generally increasing but I don't think THESE numbers show any rise in the rate of increase. I've heard (read) a lot of verbage related to how cost competitiveness of wind/solar has 'improved significantly' but I haven't seen the NUMBERS to back these claims up. "Afterall, the sun and wind are always going to cost the same." Sure. But the fact that the sun and the wind are 'free' isn't the issue. It's the cost to EXTRACT the energy from the sun and the wind which is the issue. "The cost for electricity generated for natural gas and coal will continue to rise. Once the tipping point is reached the composition of where we get our electricity from should start to shift towards renewables." Yes. But that point IS NOT NOW. Over the last 11 years, our demand for electricity increased by over 770,000 gigawatt/hrs. In that same period of time, production of electricity via renewables increased by 14,000 gigawatt/hrs. Therefore, the inescapable conclusion is that OTHER sources (fossil fuels and nuclear) made up the other 3/4 of a million gigawatt/hrs. So, my question (slightly restated) remains: would widespread use of electric vehicles be 'cleaner' for the environment given the CURRENT source of electricity? "Even if that doesn't turn out to be the case at least we can produce our electricity from domestic sources." Virtually all of our electricity IS currently produced from domestic sources (coal, NG, nuclear, hydro, solar/wind, etc.) We only produce a bit over 3% of our electricity from petroleum products, and that is both domestically and foreign sourced.
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Replying to: prm2000 (Aug 03, 2006 8:54 am) "...dedicated electric generators that operate at a single rpm are much more efficient than automobile engines with their requirement for wide power bands." True. Which is one reason why most hybrids like the Prius use CVTs which allow the engine to operate in a much narrower rpm range. However, I think (and this is just my opinion) it would be easier to market the plug-in hybrid than a system requiring a tow-behind trailer. Most people want the whole thing in a single tidy little package. Why not an electric car with an on-board diesel powered generator (vastly scaled down version of what one might see on a diesel/electric locomotive). It could be run as an electric plug-in commuter if desired or use power generated by a very small on-board diesel for longer trips?
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 03, 2006 10:06 am) Sure. But the fact that the sun and the wind are 'free' isn't the issue. It's the cost to EXTRACT the energy from the sun and the wind which is the issue. The cost to extract is the cost of the conversion device. Either a wind turbine or solar panel. These cost have steadily declined over the past 15 years. So, my question (slightly restated) remains: would widespread use of electric vehicles be 'cleaner' for the environment given the CURRENT source of electricity? Yes, it would be cleaner for the environment. Because, as you pointed out, 100% of our electricity does not come from burning coal and natural gas. Even if it did it is easier to maintain 1 smokestack than 1 million tailpipes. And as you also acknowledged, we are not dependent on foreigh sources for our electricity. So EVs are definitely the way to go. And we can always expand our nuclear energy capacity.
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 03, 2006 10:17 am) Why not an electric car with an on-board diesel powered generator (vastly scaled down version of what one might see on a diesel/electric locomotive). It could be run as an electric plug-in commuter if desired or use power generated by a very small on-board diesel for longer trips?" I agree. I think an on-board generator probably makes more sense then a tow-behind. The benefits of the trailer (or some sort of dockable generator) would be the reduced weight and space taken up by something you don't need 99% of the time. The other nice thing about an all-electric drivetrain (as opposed to the current Prius) is that the basic design doesn't have to change as new electrical storage devices become available. For now you can hook in a diesel generator. In the future you could hook in additional improved batteries, a fuel cell or nano-capacitors as those technologies become viable, but your basic drivetrain doesn't have to change to accomodate them. |
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Replying to: tpe (Aug 03, 2006 12:02 pm) No, I'm not. Look at the chart. There is a seperate column for hydroelectric (which was at 268,417 gigawatt/hrs in 2004). Right next to the column for "hydroelectric conventionals" is a column titled "other renewables". The note indicates that this column is for: "Wood, black liquor, other wood waste, municipal solid waste, landfill gas, sludge waste, tires, agriculture byproducts, other biomass, geothermal, solar thermal, photovoltaic energy and wind." ALL of my figures were based purely on "other renewables". "Solar energy now costs around 25 cents per kWh." Actually, according to solarbuzz.com (very pro-solar, I assure you), they show the average price for solar power running closer to 30 cents per kWh. They also state that "...solar is a long way from competing with conventional power generation costs at 3-5 cents/kWh..." http://www.solarbuzz.com/StatsCosts.htm Meaning that it is MUCH more economical for utility companies to produce power from sources other than solar. Solar begins to make more sense when constructed/installed by the individual user since the consumer obviously pays much more than 3-5 cents/kWh. But this is why solar PV isn't being done wholesale by the electric utility companies. Wind power makes a lot more sense (and cost a lot LESS cents) than solar PV. However, I find it absolutely typical that some of the very congressman most adamant about pursuing renewable energy voted AGAINST having a wind farm in their back yard. They took a perfectly golden opportunity to set an example and pissed all over it. Beyond that however, I'm always interested in seeing how many more wind turbines have been constructed everytime I drive through west Texas. It seems as though for every oil pumper which has stopped pumping, 3 new wind turbines have been erected. "Yes, it would be cleaner for the environment." Would it? Odds are INCREASING that the electricity would be produced from the consumption of fossil fuels, since the % of electricity produced from fossil fuels is climbing, not declining. Let's talk about those million tailpipes. Common sense tells me that the VERY folks likely to convert from ICE to a 100% electric vehicle are ALREADY driving something very clean (at least LEV if not ULEV), so how much dirtier are THOSE million tailpipes compared to......that new lignite coal power plant constructed to supply the electricity for those million non-tailpipe electric cars? Meanwhile, the other 200 million folks are still driving 10-year old Malibus or Dodge Intrepids or Ford 150 trucks (and are the LAST folks to ever consider a 100% electric car). "And we can always expand our nuclear energy capacity." We already are (just not fast enough IMO). Electricity from nuclear energy grew 29% over the same period of time that 'other renewables' grew by 18.6%.
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