Last post on Nov 12, 2006 at 1:07 PM
You are in the Cadillac DTS
What is this discussion about?
Cadillac DTS, Sedan
#33 of 64 Re: GM Money [supercool]
Aug 23, 2006 (1:04 pm)
I do not see how a DTS-V will change Cadillac from their current state of medocrity. Cadillac has always sold cars in the low end of the luxury price range. That is where the profits are. Mercedes makes its profits on the low end C-class cars and the E-class. Both of these sell fairly well.
The SRX is considered by some magazines to be a very good SUV or crossover or whatever. It is not selling as well as the big Suburban (Escalade), but is selling. The 2007 gets a much nicer interior, which should help, along with a 6 speed transmission on the V8.
It is not the big boys that count, Cadillac must be taken seriously by car buyers, and right now the car magazines have written Cadillac off as a has been. The current line up just does not compare well with the competition. The STS falls way short with its interior material quality compared to Audi (any audi), Mercedes (E-class) or other German makes.
All this Yada-Yada-Yada about a DTS-V is nonsense. What is needed at Cadillac are better current models. Now that being said, the 2007 SRX will get a much nicer interior than it currently has. The 2008 CTS will be all new, with a much better interior too. Of course the 2006 DTS had an all new interior too, and while it is better than before, I don't see it being all that much nicer than the interior on my 2002 Seville. So, while I think things will improve, I doubt that Cadillac will compare well with the German cars for interior quality. I think that GM has lost the ability to make nice interiors.
Back when they did know: http://www.fedrelandsvennen.no/amcar/brochures/cadillac/66cad/bilder/5.jpg
#34 of 64 Harsh words from a Caddy Driver
Aug 25, 2006 (3:54 pm)
You're in agreement with me that better current models are needed!
The art & science styling is growing stale, though it made a nice splash on introduction.
I agree with you on Cadillac mediocrity, but I'm hard pressed to agree that Cadillac wants to stay there. Maybe there are still some brand management executives still in place that don't have the thinking/idea power to be produce models that can be considered seriously by "car buyers."
Lack of full size performance model (my claim), lack of solid interior appointments (your claim), lack of a line up(an agreed claim), this all points to what is Cadillac?
Anyone with reasonable taste shelling out $60K or more might consider a Caddy as an idea base on name recognition, but when its time to make the purchase, the other manufacturers are eating Cadillac's lunch.
Hence a DTS-V would be nice punch to being seriously considered by car buyers. However, I'm lone voice pushing the envelope, and possibly ahead of my time.
I want my DTS-V
#35 of 64 Re: Harsh words from a Caddy Driver [supercool]
Aug 26, 2006 (9:49 am)
With respect to the interior quality, I base my "claim" on what the car magazine editors say in their comparision tests. However, my experience with GM interiors over the last few decades is that interiors are now much less attractive in certain ways than they used to be. Door panels are now made out of much less attactive plastics than they used to be. My 1995 Riviera had door panels that were covered with a fair amount of hard platics that was not very nice. The rear seat area around the window was hard plastic too. My 2002 Seville doors have softer plastics and are nicer looking. There is also a bit of wood trim.
Anyway, interior quality is a combination of style, materials, and the fit and finish of those materials. GM is upgrading the fit. The finish quality is also improving, but this has been somewhat hit and miss, or so I read here and there. Style is a matter of personal taste, but I think the STS's interior style is not quite as good as the FWD Seville's was.
When you speak of full size, do you mean Town Car, or perhaps the 1975 era DeVille? What do you mean by full size, and what do you mean by a performance model?
#36 of 64 Current Cadillac performance models and competition
Aug 26, 2006 (10:08 am)
CTS: length/width/height/wheelbase (inches) 190.1, 70.6 , 56.7 , 113.4 - performance or sport sedan $30 - 40,000 price range.
Mercedes C-class: 178.4, 68.0, 55.6, 106.9 - luxury or sport sedan trims - CTS price range.
BMW 3-series: 178.2, 71.5, 55.9, 108.7 - the ultimate sports sedan - CTS price range.
Other competition are Lexus, Audi, etc.
Note that the CTS is a bigger body.
STS: 196.3, 72.6, 57.6, 116.4 - Price ranges from $42,000 to $65,000 depending on options
Mercedes E-class: 191.0, 71.7, 58.4, 112.4 - not called a sports sedan by Mercedes - price ranges from $50 to 60,000.
BMW 5-series: 191.1, 72.7, 57.8, 113.7 - price ranges from $43 to 60,000.
The STS is a longer body. In fact the CTS body is about the same size as the E-class and 5-series, although not as wide.
#37 of 64 The current DTS
Aug 26, 2006 (10:41 am)
DTS: 207.6, 74.8, 57.6, 115.6 - price $41 to 48,000. FWD sedan
Town Car: 215-221, 78.5, 59, 117.7-123.7 - a big sedan. Price similar to DTS.
Mercedes S-class: 205, 73.7, 58.0, 124.6 - large luxury sedan - price range $86 to 140,000
BMW 7-series: 198.4-203.9, 74.9, 58.7, 117.7-123.2 - BMW's luxury model - price range $71 to 119,000
Clearly the DTS and Town Car are bigger than the Europeans, but are priced much lower. Unless you understand what the differences are, none of this makes much sense.
#38 of 64 Full size, and can I get fries with it!
Aug 27, 2006 (6:40 pm)
Your last post on comparision is exactly where I would expect the DTS-V to be, matching up with the S Class, the 7 series and the A8 of Audi.
From your argument position, I'm understanding that Cadillac can't match-up to these vehicles, or . . . shouldn't even try!
Now of course if your saying Cadillac has already relinquished this segment, fine, but then what is the value of the rest of the V line-up? They're not really matching up to the junior varsity line up of the Europeans already.
I argue that the Cadillac needs to get into the game and get into serioursly such that the auto rags will give a nod of recognition, which potentially will tweak marketing and capture the interest and purchasing option of the North American market. Otherwise the entire V concept is futile.
I want my DTS-V.
#39 of 64 Re: Full size, and can I get fries with it! [supercool]
Aug 28, 2006 (3:04 pm)
As you say, they should either make the current line up better or the concept is futile.
Way back when, in the late 1950's to be exact, Cadillac tried with an Eldorado Brougham. I don't know if it was successfull, but they sold about 1000 altogether, over a 4 or 5 year period. It was priced at about double that of a well equipped Sixty Special. Note that 60,000 Sixty Specials were sold in the same period.
The Allante was a similar experiment, except that it was after the Mercedes SL roadster market.
Cadillac has not had any experience in building a quality S-class car. I think the better Cadillac's have been closer to the C-class than E-class for that matter. I think that the DTS, which is the DeVille model of old, should continue on as a lower priced luxury car (base price over $40,000). I also think Cadillac should introduce a sigma platform model along the lines of the old Fleetwood Sixty Special. Something elegant, but still a drivers car. I do not attach much importance to a V-series designation, as these are hot-rodded Cadillacs for the purpose of stock car racing, not really street cars. However, the STS-V seems less hotrod and more street luxury performance. The CTS on the other hand, is ready for stock car racing.
#40 of 64 Cadillac a fading star?
Aug 29, 2006 (5:26 pm)
I remember the Eldorado Brougham, American luxury at its finest, and matching up against the Licoln Mark IV and V.
It was totally a specialty ride.
The Allante I thought was a loss cause, right along with the Cimmaron. This was all part of the brand management era.
Alas, what you argue is the very dilemma I see with Cadillac, a little bit of this and not enough of that, leaving a line that has significant strenghts, e.g. CTS, but significant weakness too, e.g. DTS.
I'm sure the brand managers are content with the SRX, Escalde and CTS sales, and will ride the bubble on DTS, but they will surely find themselves lost when the demographic runs its course, the Japanese will scoop up the market with new models and consumer satisfaction. Toyota has already displaced Ford from the number 2 spot, and GM is next.
Will I ever get my DTS-V, realistically . . . doubtful!, but its interesting to push the envelope.
#41 of 64 Re: Cadillac a fading star? [supercool]
Aug 30, 2006 (6:27 am)
The CTS is selling very well. The SRX and STS sales are not as good. I am not sure what Cadillac's expectation are. However, the DTS is selling quite well, and the Lucerne, basically the same car, is selling very well.
The DTS, basically the old DeVille series, has always been a basic Cadillac luxury model. I do not think moving it into the sport sedan market segment will do it any real good. Moving it up market will also not work. What Cadillac needs is a new model in the higher end category, but they need a lower end model too, so that they have some basis for making the upper end model.
The CTS, as an entry level sports luxury sedan, is attractive to younger buyers. The STS is a higher end model, and probably is not going to attract BMW or Mercedes owners. As I see it Cadillac needs to keep the DTS as the low priced luxury model that is a large sedan. The basic point here is that the STS and DTS define what you can get in the over $40,000 price which is where the luxury car starts. These two models define the lower end, and Cadillac could build something in a higher price range, but this higher end model will need to be much better in terms of refinement (stronger body structure, more luxury) than the lower end models. I think that the STS's sales are weak because most interested buyers want the sports sedan options (packages 1SF or 1SG) which are very expensive, making the STS a dubious value.
#42 of 64 regarding the Allante and Cimarron
Aug 30, 2006 (6:46 am)
The Allante was expensive to build, but the car was not worth what they tried to charge for it. The Cimarron was little more than the Cavalier. However, I have always thought that a top of the line Buick or Oldsmobile was a more sensible choice than a Cadillac. The Allante was basically an Eldorado without the back seat. The Reatta was a Riviera without a back seat, and since both the Riviera and Eldorado were using the same platform, the Allante and Reatta were basically the same car too. Now, it is true that Cadillac did put some new features on the Allante first, like traction control.
The one thing that Cadillac does have going for it at present is the sigma platform, which they are using for the sports sedans and the Cadillac crossover SUV. This does give Cadillac a few models on a special (and expensive) platform not shared with lower end GM models.
Cadillac has always done a fair job with lower end luxury models. The original Cadillac's (in the early 1900's) were mid-priced cars, not luxury cars. When GM took over Cadillac, Cadillac was moved into the luxury range for GM. However, GM has always wanted profits, and for Cadillac to generate profits, they need a volume seller in the lower price ranges, that is not horribly expensive to build. So I think that the future DTS probably needs a lower cost platform, not quite suitable for a sports sedan, that will be shared with other GM makes, making a profitable lower end large luxury sedan possible.