Last post on Nov 12, 2006 at 1:07 PM
You are in the Cadillac DTS
What is this discussion about?
Cadillac DTS, Sedan
#15 of 64 Re: Price [supercool]
Aug 10, 2006 (7:10 am)
My pricing estimates were for a base DTS, not a DTS_V. Add $10,000 onto the STS_V price tag for an estimate on what a DTS_V should cost, and that would be for a V8 model.
Please try to understand that the current FWD DTS will remain in production for a few more years, and a RWD DTS is only in the planning stage at this point. There is no public information on this that I have seen. A V-series DTS would be a longer term project.
A very serious question remains as to what Cadillac will do with the DTS or the deVille series. This has been a popular Cadillac since the mid-1950's. Please try to grasp the point that making the DTS on the RWD sigma platform will increase its price tag considerably. It would make no sense to have a small STS model priced at the same level as a larger DTS model on the sigma platform. In any case, the cost of building a larger model on the sigma platform would be higher than the smaller STS, thus the price would have to be greater.
#16 of 64 The Price is Right, Come on down!!!
Aug 10, 2006 (1:17 pm)
I disagree with you on price and engineering challenges.
Taking a DTS to the sigma platform does not requires major engineering changes; its simply a matter of scale for the production line. This is one of the reasons, GM & Ford are being killed at the market place, due to their unwillingness and slowness to meet the demand of the market place.
BMW, M-Benz, and Audi series cars are virtually identical in components, and what they offer is size differentials.
By way of example: BMW 3-series, 5-series, and 7-series.
These cars are all "fundamently" the same and then scaled up from the basic design for size.
With this being said, taking the sigma platform and pumping it up with the steriods, bears you the DTS-V.
The DTS/DeVille popularity has been with an aging demographic, which has probably bought their last DTS/DeVille.
Unless Cadillac is looking to relinquish the full size car market to the Europeans and Lincoln-Ford, a change has gotta-come! The change opportunity is in the DTS sigma platform! With respect to time and long term project, Cadillac/GM does not have time to for play. Toyota has surpassed Ford to be the number 2 car manufacturer in the states, and for sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, they're looking to be number 1, which means the products have to make it to the show room swiftly and they need to be "hot" to capture the American car buying market. They worked for the SUV, but with gas prices hitting the roof, they're outdated by economics. Cars and crossovers are the future.
With a Cadillac luster in small (CTS), mid-size (STS), and full size (DTS) via the V-series, Cadillac will be able to command a presence and product in the upper eschelon of the car market, which will capture the American buyer.
I want my DTS-V!
#17 of 64 Re: The Price is Right, Come on down!!! [supercool]
Aug 11, 2006 (6:16 am)
The current sigma factory is limited to 150,000 vehicles annually. The current CTS, SRX and STS models run about 100,000 to 120,000 units annually. So, unless another sigma factory is added, the sigma DTS will be limited to about 40 to 50 thousand units annually. Current DTS production should run around 70 to 80 thousand units.
The BMW 3, 5 and 7 series cars are not priced the same. So, the CTS , STS and DTS models should not be priced the same either. The V-series versions also should not be priced the same. The CTS_V is about $50,000; the STS_V is about 75,000; therefore the DTS_V should be about $100,000. Perhaps, with a V12, $125,000.
Aug 13, 2006 (5:29 pm)
I don't contemplate production line creation has an issue.
GM has plenty of factory capacity in Canada, Mexico and the United States (unless they're deciding to shut it down!) to set up a DTS sigma line (this of course based on the premise the only engineering necessary is a scaling up for size).
Pricing however is an issue. $100,000 DTS-V is a steep price for the current image of Cadillac. The Escalde is only going for 75K. A solid way to go is to introduce the model at about 80K, show its value and build the cache, and then bump it incremently. Additionally, DTS-V would be a steriod version of the regular DTS which could be sold for 60K, with a good built in mark up. With this approach, Cadillac is down to one platform with all associated engineering consolidated and efficiency maximized.
I want my DTS-V!
#19 of 64 Re: Price Issue [supercool]
Aug 15, 2006 (5:54 am)
Certainly an existing factory could be retooled to expand the sigma production capacity. However, this is not going to make the sigma platform less expensive to build.
Perhaps Cadillac should only build V-series models since that seems to be what you want.
Aug 16, 2006 (8:31 pm)
Do I want a v-series line . . . of course that's what I want.
What make you think the sigma platform is expensive to build?
Any platform short of a model T is expensive.
#21 of 64 Re: ???? [supercool]
Aug 17, 2006 (5:40 am)
It is expensive because they use high strength steel alloys to build the body stucture. The less expensive lines, like the DTS, use cheaper steels for the body stucture. It seems to me that you really have no idea how cars are built, or what makes one better than another.
Aug 17, 2006 (7:41 am)
Your opening line of response is rather basic.
You cite quality of components with respect to engineering capability and production line creation.
If you used higher grade/quality components on a Ford Tarus or Chevrolet Impala, it would be more expensive too. Hence, the issue is not component quality and price, but engineering capability, market demand and marketing.
The engineering capability question is alreaday answered! The sigma platform exists and is a finished design. Scaling up for a full size version is not a major feat, and I would venture that a full size plan (DTS)is already drawn.
The unknown question is market demand. Certainly, keeping it easy on the current FWD platform is nice for GM, but this attitude of not making a push to the next level is killing GM and Ford on product placement versus the competition. A look at the market share number in any category tells the story.
Certainly my sole voice calling for the DTS-V would not prompt GM to create a production line to meet my demand. However, I am of the opinion there are other unvoiced voices out there that desire a full size Caddy capable of competing with the full size BMW, Audi, and M-Benz. This is the push that GM needs to make in order to keep Cadillac in the game. They done a nice job with the CTS in the lite division, doing nice with the STS in the middle division. Now its time to start playing like a big boy and move to the heavy weight division with a DTS and stand up and be counted.
Hence, the standard GM market approach could be to create a base model DTS for the masses and a DTS-V model for the performance crowd. This would allow for a halo effect across the entire Cadillac line up.
If GM can take a Chey Suburban, change the badging and interior appointments and call it an Escalde, then anything is possible.
I want my DTS-V
#23 of 64 Re: No idea??? [supercool]
Aug 17, 2006 (9:14 am)
Market demand will depend on the price of the vehicle. The price will depend on the platform that it is built on, which will determine the cost of building.
If the DTS is going onto the expensive sigma platform as a larger car than the current CTS and STS models, then it makes sense to me that it will cost more to build and the price should be higher. However, they could put cheap plastics and cloth seats in it and keep the cost and price down. It this what you are looking for?
The Escalde is not really a Cadillac from my point of view, but if people are dumb enough to pay extra for the bling, then why not?
#24 of 64 Price Determination
Aug 17, 2006 (9:23 pm)
Price and cost are intermingled.
The more you produce, generally the lower price becomes due to scales of efficiency/economy.
My argument is not on whether the price will be steep.
My argument is that the demand "may" be sufficient to have scales of efficiency/economy to become a significant factor.
If the DTS on sigma platform sells in the same numbers as that psuedo-cadillac the "Allente" then its doomed to failure and priced out of the market. However, if the market calls for it in the same numbers as the CTS and STS, then its a winner, coming in at the lower end of the high scale.
By the way, I enjoy this exchange of ideas, concepts and views with you.
Nevertheless, I want my DTS-V