Ask the Car People.SM


Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

6854 messages,  Last post on Jul 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM

You are in the Kia Amanti Forum.

What is this discussion about? Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 682 of 686

#6811 of 6854 Re: Other Way Around. NO! [captain2] by rminor

Nov 20, 2008 (4:45 pm)

Replying to: captain2 (Nov 20, 2008 8:37 am)
"The only thing that made it quite obviously a diesel - compression braking - when you let off the accelerator it's like you turned the car into a 100 mph headwind"
Are you saying a diesel has a lot of compression braking? Not without an exhaust brake. The air inlet on a diesel is wide open. No way to close it like a gas engine. So, very little compression braking.

#6812 of 6854 The Other Way Around. NO! [captain2] by donna388

Nov 20, 2008 (6:57 pm)

Replying to: captain2 (Nov 20, 2008 8:37 am)
"Explain why the VW TDIs have always (and continue) to be slugs relative to their gas engined bethren?"
 
That depends on which gasoline motor you are comparing the diesel to.
If you compare the TDI with the standard gasoline 2.5L five cylinder
engine, that's not necessarily so.
 
The just available and at your VW dealers now here in Estados Unidos is
the Jetta Sedan and Sport Wagen with a 2.0L TDI (Turbo diesel injected.)
With 236lb/ft torque at 1750 -2500 rpm, and 140 hp at 4000 rpm, it may be a
trifle slower 0 - 60 compared to the standard 5 cylinder 2.5L gasoline
engine with 177lb/ft torque at 4250 rpm and 170hp at 5700 rpm.
Look what you need to do with that five banger gasser to get to the maximum
hp/torque rpms. This is with their standard available gas engine.
FE is but 20 city and 29 highway with an automatic.
The TDI is always right there on that fat torque plateau where you spend most of
your time, and again, there is no need to downshift to get good acceleration.
FE is 29 city/40 highway, but members over on Fred's will give you a big discussion as to those
FE figures being far to low when compared to what actual owners are receiving mileage wise.
I read there about mileages in the low 30s in the city and mid to
high 40s on the highway. Some even speak of 800 mile tanks.
Yes, VW does have their turbocharged 2.0L gasoline 4 cylinder with 200 hp,
but it will not achieve the FE of the TDI. It must have premimum fuel.
Over yonder, VW has that same short block TDI producing much greater
power, but alas, they won't bring that one over here to the N A continent.
 
Drop by your eager VW dealer and test-drive one. I think you are in for a surprise.
 
Regarding the infamous GM 350 diesels of 1978, I bought a new '79 Cutlass
Cruiser Wagon (ordered it loaded) and it was something else indeed.
Had it for two years and only 17K miles, and I did not experience the
problems that many people had with theirs. It was a real slug.
No turbo and no lock up T/C and only a three speed TH350 trans.
That motor was nothing more than a halfbred. A converted gasoline engine.
One can only imagine what a 5.7 liter modern diesel engine would be like today
given the advances in diesel engine design. Simply look at the Duramax,
especially the newly designed 4.4L yet to come out version.
 
A not to swift diesel either was the 4.3L six cylinder GM diesel
I had in my front wheel drive '82 Buick Century.
Many problems with that one. Piston slap (GM replaced two pistons under warranty)
a governor retainer ring failure in West Yellowstone. It had to be towed to
Billings and was repaired at no charge under the emissions warranty.
Tranny lost second speed when I kicked it down to pass in the four corners area of Navajo
country and I drove it clear back to California with only first and third gears and lockup.
Too much torque, as that motor had the most torque of any of the engines being put in
front of that tranny at that time (recall the four clyinder iron duke and the 3.0L sixes?)
Funny how GM always puts their vehicles in the hands of the public to 'prove up'
their product. They wonder why they are in BIG TROUBLE now!
 
I digress, Sorry.

#6813 of 6854 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [allavalons] by tonycd

Nov 20, 2008 (8:57 pm)

Replying to: allavalons (Aug 25, 2008 9:47 am)
AllAvalons, I see your point and yet I don't.
 
"Unfortunately telling people they should think differently just doesn't work, and yes, perception is reality in the market. Nameplates like BMW, and Mercedes earned those reputations...."
 
Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them, and people have begun to notice -- which is why the dull, reliable and service-oriented Lexus brand has moved into the void so successfully. "Perception is reality"? Yes, If you're buying their stocks or handicapping their sales, yes. If you're buying their cars, no -- reality is reality. The reality of the Hyundai Genesis is big room, rear drive, full options, extreme quiet, and modern engines. There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators. As for me, I hope they all hate it so I can drive in comfort and luxury for thousands off. Screw 'em.
  
"As I said, a large V-8 is where everyone has been, but is not where everyone is going, and those folks looking for that big V-8 are the very folks that are comfortable with the Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc."
 
Even accepting your premise of handicapping the popularity of the cars, this comment misses the point. When Lexus and Infiniti models like the GS and the M offer a choice between V6 and V8 power, very few buyers actually buy the 8. It's there as a halo choice, for image. You'll notice that the excellent Acura RL died like a dog, in large part because it didn't have that halo to mesmerize people who'd end up getting the V6 anyway. Hyundai fully expects, and so do I, that most Genesis buyers will choose their excellent V6. In short, in all regards EXCEPT image, the V8 simply isn't very important, and even Hyundai has always known it.

#6814 of 6854 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [tonycd] by thegraduate

Nov 21, 2008 (1:09 pm)

Replying to: tonycd (Nov 20, 2008 8:57 pm)
There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators.
 
Or perhaps you don't like the driving experience, which you completely left out of your "two-parts." Perhaps it should be "at least three-parts?"
.
.
C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle:
We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks. As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension, which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry. But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping could benefit from a little revision. Maybe more than a little.
 
On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads, contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss.
 
They go on to say its a luxury cruiser, but not on the same page as vehicles such as the BMW 528.
 
Automobile Magazine, in comparing the Genesis against German and Japanese Lux competition had this to say about the driving experience:
 
On glass-smooth on-ramps, the big Hyundai takes a deliberate, slightly tail-out set, thanks in part to an enormous rear antiroll bar.
 
But add a few bumps, and the Genesis takes a turn for the worse. Unlike any of the other sedans, the Hyundai falls completely to pieces on twisty, bumpy back roads. Push it hard, and pavement irregularities send the Genesis heaving and wallowing down the road with the traction control light flashing and the steering wheel shuddering. When you're hustling with a car full of passengers, its soft rear suspension crashes onto its bump stops over moderately rough roads.
 
Sure, hard-core cornering probably isn't on a lot of shoppers' lists when looking at the $40k Hyundai, but I post this to say that there are definitely some places where the Genesis needs to improve besides wood trim and brand prestige.
 
 
 
Best regards,
 
TheGrad

#6815 of 6854 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [tonycd] by kdshapiro

Nov 21, 2008 (3:53 pm)

Replying to: tonycd (Nov 20, 2008 8:57 pm)
Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them
 
Maybe Mercedes, but not BMW. And certainly not in every market segment.

#6816 of 6854 Bad Shock Engineering. by donna388

Nov 21, 2008 (4:35 pm)

"C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle:
We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion
quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks.
As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension,
which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry.
But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the
decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping
could benefit from a little revision. Maybe more than a little. [Ah men!]
  
On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads,
contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of
the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss."
 
Just like the Azera.
Hyundai's suspension engineers are not up to the task of properly designing a good suspension system.
I know because we are on our third set of front shocks for our Azera in less than 14K miles.
Hyundia's Mando supplied shocks simply do not last and are not up to the task, and from what some magagine writters are saying, it doesn't appear that the Sachs shocks in the Genesis are any
better. What a shame. Excellent cars failing because of Hyundia's suspension engineers!
 
In both cases, one wonders why Hyundai did not go to Bilstein or KYB
in the beginning when shopping for shock absorber suppliers.

#6817 of 6854 2009 Ford Taurus by thegraduate

Nov 21, 2008 (5:03 pm)

This vehicle is updated on Ford's website. Trim levels have been shuffled with a base SE sliding in, and SEL being equipped much like last year's SEL w/Safety and Security package.

#6818 of 6854 Re: The Other Way Around. NO! [donna388] by lightfootfl

Nov 24, 2008 (7:56 am)

Replying to: donna388 (Nov 20, 2008 6:57 pm)
Sorry to be behind the power curve here, but who or what is "Fred's" ? Thanks, van

#6819 of 6854 Re: The Other Way Around. NO! [lightfootfl] by donna388

Nov 24, 2008 (9:15 am)

Replying to: lightfootfl (Nov 24, 2008 7:56 am)

 
No need to feel sorry Dave. What year was your VW Diesel?
 
So a search for Fred's TDI or go to: www.tdiclub.com
That will get you to a group of VW enthusiasts bar none.
As a group, we know the VW diesel better than the dealers, I kid you not!
 
I am always surprised how many VW diesel owners have never heard of this group.
With over 64,497members World Wide of which over 18,000 are considered active,
it has been around for over 10 years and is continually growing.
 
Fred is a fellow who started that group many years ago when he didn't own a diesel
and this group simply grew and grew. Whatever you need to know, the members
there know the car.

#6820 of 6854 Hyundai does not want to hear from you. by carolinabob

Nov 24, 2008 (9:53 am)

Last year, I wrote to Lexus and told them why I did not purchase one of their cars. Within 2-3 weeks, they called me and we had a nice chat about what I would like to see on their cars. They also sent me brochures on the LS and GS models.
   I have also communicated with other manufacturers and been cordially treated.
       But, NOT Hyundai!
   08/26 sent a letter to CEO with what I would like to see on the Genesis. Most suggestions were things on the Azera, but not on the Genesis and moving some features from the 4.6 to another package on the 3.8.
   09/05 letter stamped received in President's office.
   10/02 letter stamped received in Consumer Affairs Dept.
   11/21 letter stamped received in Legal Dept.
   11/21 letter returned to me with a cover letter from assistant general counsel.
  
      Their letter states: "As a matter of course, all correspondence received by HMA containing suggestions for design changes, new products, marketing strategies, advertising slogans or the like, is forwarded to the Legal Department for reply. Please be advised that it is against the policy of HMA to accept unsolicited ideas from persons outside the Hyundai organization. In accordance with this policy, we are returning your correspondence with this letter. Please consider this letter as HMA's response to your August 26, 2008 correspondence."
  
      This is why Hyundai will not suceed as a luxury car manufacturer and will ultimately have problems becoming a major factor in the American market.

Messages Page 682 of 686

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement