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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

6844 messages,  Last post on Mar 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM

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What is this discussion about? Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan

#6809 of 6844 Re: Other Way Around. NO! [donna388] by captain2 Nov 20, 2008 (7:37 am)
Replying to: donna388 (Nov 18, 2008 8:42 pm) Obviously you've not driven any late model diesel powered vehicles recently. actually have, a MB ML320CDI SUV, and as I said it was quite remarkable and unobtrusive - in short, quite undiesel- like. The only thing that made it quite obviously a diesel - compression braking - when you let off the accelerator it's like you turned the car into a 100 mph headwind. Drivability has not generally been the diesels problem however because of all that low end torque as you say, acceleration, stink, and clatter - now those are things that should improve with these new generation 'clean' diesels as they become available. May continue to be a hard sell over here in the states though, too many folks remember those Oldsmobile 98s with that infamous 350 diesel. Replies to this message: allmet33 (Nov 20, 2008 7:41 am) rminor (Nov 20, 2008 3:45 pm) donna388 (Nov 20, 2008 5:57 pm) lightfootfl (Nov 24, 2008 6:56 am) donna388 (Nov 24, 2008 8:15 am) and 1 more...
#6810 of 6844 Re: Other Way Around. NO! [captain2] by allmet33 Nov 20, 2008 (7:41 am)
Replying to: captain2 (Nov 20, 2008 7:37 am) Like the new 3.0 TDi diesel that's in the Audi Q7?   Audi Q7 3.0 TDi Test Drive   and then you have this one as well...   Audi 5.9 V-12 TDi
#6811 of 6844 Re: Other Way Around. NO! [captain2] by rminor Nov 20, 2008 (3:45 pm)
Replying to: captain2 (Nov 20, 2008 7:37 am) "The only thing that made it quite obviously a diesel - compression braking - when you let off the accelerator it's like you turned the car into a 100 mph headwind" Are you saying a diesel has a lot of compression braking? Not without an exhaust brake. The air inlet on a diesel is wide open. No way to close it like a gas engine. So, very little compression braking.
#6812 of 6844 The Other Way Around. NO! [captain2] by donna388 Nov 20, 2008 (5:57 pm)
Replying to: captain2 (Nov 20, 2008 7:37 am) "Explain why the VW TDIs have always (and continue) to be slugs relative to their gas engined bethren?"   That depends on which gasoline motor you are comparing the diesel to. If you compare the TDI with the standard gasoline 2.5L five cylinder engine, that's not necessarily so.   The just available and at your VW dealers now here in Estados Unidos is the Jetta Sedan and Sport Wagen with a 2.0L TDI (Turbo diesel injected.) With 236lb/ft torque at 1750 -2500 rpm, and 140 hp at 4000 rpm, it may be a trifle slower 0 - 60 compared to the standard 5 cylinder 2.5L gasoline engine with 177lb/ft torque at 4250 rpm and 170hp at 5700 rpm. Look what you need to do with that five banger gasser to get to the maximum hp/torque rpms. This is with their standard available gas engine. FE is but 20 city and 29 highway with an automatic. The TDI is always right there on that fat torque plateau where you spend most of your time, and again, there is no need to downshift to get good acceleration. FE is 29 city/40 highway, but members over on Fred's will give you a big discussion as to those FE figures being far to low when compared to what actual owners are receiving mileage wise. I read there about mileages in the low 30s in the city and mid to high 40s on the highway. Some even speak of 800 mile tanks. Yes, VW does have their turbocharged 2.0L gasoline 4 cylinder with 200 hp, but it will not achieve the FE of the TDI. It must have premimum fuel. Over yonder, VW has that same short block TDI producing much greater power, but alas, they won't bring that one over here to the N A continent.   Drop by your eager VW dealer and test-drive one. I think you are in for a surprise.   Regarding the infamous GM 350 diesels of 1978, I bought a new '79 Cutlass Cruiser Wagon (ordered it loaded) and it was something else indeed. Had it for two years and only 17K miles, and I did not experience the problems that many people had with theirs. It was a real slug. No turbo and no lock up T/C and only a three speed TH350 trans. That motor was nothing more than a halfbred. A converted gasoline engine. One can only imagine what a 5.7 liter modern diesel engine would be like today given the advances in diesel engine design. Simply look at the Duramax, especially the newly designed 4.4L yet to come out version.   A not to swift diesel either was the 4.3L six cylinder GM diesel I had in my front wheel drive '82 Buick Century. Many problems with that one. Piston slap (GM replaced two pistons under warranty) a governor retainer ring failure in West Yellowstone. It had to be towed to Billings and was repaired at no charge under the emissions warranty. Tranny lost second speed when I kicked it down to pass in the four corners area of Navajo country and I drove it clear back to California with only first and third gears and lockup. Too much torque, as that motor had the most torque of any of the engines being put in front of that tranny at that time (recall the four clyinder iron duke and the 3.0L sixes?) Funny how GM always puts their vehicles in the hands of the public to 'prove up' their product. They wonder why they are in BIG TROUBLE now!   I digress, Sorry. Replies to this message: lightfootfl (Nov 24, 2008 6:56 am) donna388 (Nov 24, 2008 8:15 am) lightfootfl (Nov 25, 2008 7:36 am)
#6813 of 6844 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [allavalons] by tonycd Nov 20, 2008 (7:57 pm)
Replying to: allavalons (Aug 25, 2008 8:47 am) AllAvalons, I see your point and yet I don't.   "Unfortunately telling people they should think differently just doesn't work, and yes, perception is reality in the market. Nameplates like BMW, and Mercedes earned those reputations...."   Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them, and people have begun to notice -- which is why the dull, reliable and service-oriented Lexus brand has moved into the void so successfully. "Perception is reality"? Yes, If you're buying their stocks or handicapping their sales, yes. If you're buying their cars, no -- reality is reality. The reality of the Hyundai Genesis is big room, rear drive, full options, extreme quiet, and modern engines. There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators. As for me, I hope they all hate it so I can drive in comfort and luxury for thousands off. Screw 'em.    "As I said, a large V-8 is where everyone has been, but is not where everyone is going, and those folks looking for that big V-8 are the very folks that are comfortable with the Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc."   Even accepting your premise of handicapping the popularity of the cars, this comment misses the point. When Lexus and Infiniti models like the GS and the M offer a choice between V6 and V8 power, very few buyers actually buy the 8. It's there as a halo choice, for image. You'll notice that the excellent Acura RL died like a dog, in large part because it didn't have that halo to mesmerize people who'd end up getting the V6 anyway. Hyundai fully expects, and so do I, that most Genesis buyers will choose their excellent V6. In short, in all regards EXCEPT image, the V8 simply isn't very important, and even Hyundai has always known it. Replies to this message: thegraduate (Nov 21, 2008 12:09 pm) kdshapiro (Nov 21, 2008 2:53 pm)
#6814 of 6844 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [tonycd] by thegraduate Nov 21, 2008 (12:09 pm)
Replying to: tonycd (Nov 20, 2008 7:57 pm) There are only two parts of the physical car that fall notably short of its lux-brand competitors: the fake wood and the slanty-H logos. Which means, unless you're fanatical about timber, you're not objecting to the owner's experience driving the car -- you're objecting to the reaction of spectators.   Or perhaps you don't like the driving experience, which you completely left out of your "two-parts." Perhaps it should be "at least three-parts?" . . C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle: We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks. As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension, which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry. But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping could benefit from a little revision. Maybe more than a little.   On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads, contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss.   They go on to say its a luxury cruiser, but not on the same page as vehicles such as the BMW 528.   Automobile Magazine, in comparing the Genesis against German and Japanese Lux competition had this to say about the driving experience:   On glass-smooth on-ramps, the big Hyundai takes a deliberate, slightly tail-out set, thanks in part to an enormous rear antiroll bar.   But add a few bumps, and the Genesis takes a turn for the worse. Unlike any of the other sedans, the Hyundai falls completely to pieces on twisty, bumpy back roads. Push it hard, and pavement irregularities send the Genesis heaving and wallowing down the road with the traction control light flashing and the steering wheel shuddering. When you're hustling with a car full of passengers, its soft rear suspension crashes onto its bump stops over moderately rough roads.   Sure, hard-core cornering probably isn't on a lot of shoppers' lists when looking at the $40k Hyundai, but I post this to say that there are definitely some places where the Genesis needs to improve besides wood trim and brand prestige.       Best regards,   TheGrad
#6815 of 6844 Re: If they are serious with the Genesis [tonycd] by kdshapiro Nov 21, 2008 (2:53 pm)
Replying to: tonycd (Nov 20, 2008 7:57 pm) Yeah, and now they've spent the last decade frantically un-earning them   Maybe Mercedes, but not BMW. And certainly not in every market segment.
#6816 of 6844 Bad Shock Engineering. by donna388 Nov 21, 2008 (3:35 pm)
"C&D had this to say about driving the vehicle: We mentioned the suggestion of athleticism, and that’s what it is: a visual suggestion quickly tempered by dynamic realities when the road acquires curves and kinks. As we noted in our August preview test, Hyundai didn’t skimp on the suspension, which employs multilink hardware fore and aft, with aluminum componentry. But it didn’t take long on some of our favorite back roads to convince us that the decisions made by the chassis engineers in the area of spring rates and damping could benefit from a little revision. Maybe more than a little. [Ah men!]    On smooth freeway stretches, the ride is creamy and quiet. But on those back roads, contoured and crinkled by Michigan winters, it was not difficult to use up all of the suspension travel, yielding hard bumps and episodes of head toss."   Just like the Azera. Hyundai's suspension engineers are not up to the task of properly designing a good suspension system. I know because we are on our third set of front shocks for our Azera in less than 14K miles. Hyundia's Mando supplied shocks simply do not last and are not up to the task, and from what some magagine writters are saying, it doesn't appear that the Sachs shocks in the Genesis are any better. What a shame. Excellent cars failing because of Hyundia's suspension engineers!   In both cases, one wonders why Hyundai did not go to Bilstein or KYB in the beginning when shopping for shock absorber suppliers.
#6817 of 6844 2009 Ford Taurus by thegraduate Nov 21, 2008 (4:03 pm)
This vehicle is updated on Ford's website. Trim levels have been shuffled with a base SE sliding in, and SEL being equipped much like last year's SEL w/Safety and Security package.
#6818 of 6844 Re: The Other Way Around. NO! [donna388] by lightfootfl Nov 24, 2008 (6:56 am)
Replying to: donna388 (Nov 20, 2008 5:57 pm) Sorry to be behind the power curve here, but who or what is "Fred's" ? Thanks, van Replies to this message: donna388 (Nov 24, 2008 8:15 am) lightfootfl (Nov 25, 2008 7:36 am)

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