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Sedans Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison
6844 messages, Last post on Mar 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM
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| Do all dealers negotiate the capitalization price when leasing? How close to an actual negotiated purchase price will they normally go on a lease? Is the residual value something to negotiate? Do Infinity dealers have much control or does the Home Office tightly control leases and purchases? Thanks for any insight...Dana Hobart | |
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Replying to: allavalons (Aug 23, 2008 3:37 pm) Seems like these come up every so often: Just so you know, every comparo I've seen so far has pitted the Genesis against a luxury competitor, including here on Edmunds RE: Genesis V8 vs. Lexus GS350 To give you a little background, the decision against the luxury division in the US, by the way, don't think it hasn't been reviewed over and over - the cost just far exceeded the potential benefit. Also, Hyundai has said it would take a long long time just to break-even and recoup the cost of initial investment. The luxury division is on hold for now, meaning it could still happen in the future. Right now, let's focus on the Genesis, made by Hyundai and as a Hyundai. Even if the product fails, and if nothing else, which the chance is equally as much as under the luxury brand (50/50), the transformation and intangible benefits from the Genesis line (sedan and coupe) to the fleet and the brand will be something hard to put into actual numbers or terms. Same thing with VW and the Phaeton, a great car but no one would buy a $70K car with the VW on the front grille. You forgot one thing - the Genesis isn't 70K. Did you know Hyundai has already sold more units of the Genesis in just a little over a month (through July) than the entire run the Phaeton had in the US? Or the fact Hyundai has already gone ahead of several of its luxury competitors last month, including the Acura RL, and is poised to take a cut and grab additional share in this lucrative segment? That said, it is still way too early to assess the Genesis, success or not, especially with the supply being at less than 100%, and the absence of V8 models from most dealers. To write off the Genesis, however, as you have noted, is a bit premature, in my opinion. If the last few years is any indication of the peformance by the Koreans, I would not bet against them in their continued goal to be a major player, something they've already achieved globally, by the way. A Genesis under a luxury brand would have certainly stickered for a lot more than the price as we see today. I don't know about you, but I would have no problem taking the Genesis as it is. A good car is a good car, an emblem does not make the car any better than it is.
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Replying to: joe97 (Aug 24, 2008 1:01 pm) Sources: The WSJ: "Hyundai Makes Big Gamble With Luxury Genesis Sedan" -- Neal Boudette, August 20, 2008 You can say what you will but perception in marketing is reality and the truth of the matter is Hyundai still carries the perception of a below Luxury class manufacturer as is the case with Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and others which is why Lexus, Infinity and Acura exist. Genesis may be a nice car, but so was the concept of Mazda's Millenium, and Mitsubishi's Diamonte. Good luck to them but history and perception is not on their side. This discussion on Genesis is not one of car favorites or fans of one car or manufacturer over another, it's the cold hard reality of perception and the forces of the market. Just like stocks, never fall in love with a stock or a car, always look for the next trend, or in hockey parlance, look to where the puck is headed not to where it is. Another big land cruiser is not where the puck is going, it's been there and has left, just look at what happened to Toyota and their big Tundra, can't give them away, nor Ford F-150's or Chevy Silverados. The Ford Crown Vic is now just for Police Cruisers and so on and so on. Luxury brands have their roots in the market where people are less impacted by swings in gasoline prices, rates, etc. they have disposable income to continue to buy what they want and the erosion in sales are just the marginal buyers, those trying to step/reach up that are left behind. It's just another reason that Genesis is a gamble and if they want to target Lexus or Acura the real Lexus crowd will not consider the Hyundai Brand as luxury nor will anyone else. They are mass producers and that will be their ceiling.
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Replying to: allavalons (Aug 24, 2008 6:12 pm)
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Replying to: joe97 (Aug 25, 2008 5:10 am)  
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Replying to: thegraduate (Aug 25, 2008 5:59 am) http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=Hyundai%20Makes%20Big%20Gamble%20With%20Luxu- ry%20Genesis%20Sedan&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn Sure it came up as the first result, but the article itself was completely different: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121925072445356975.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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Replying to: joe97 (Aug 25, 2008 6:23 am) What folks need to realize is...it has happened. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Hyundai has broken the mold on what can be expected of an automaker. Think about it, they offer everything except a pick-up truck, from econo-box to full sized, tech loaded luxury (what other automaker can say that?) It just really seems that folks don't like the fact that they did do it. Must be folks that secretly love the Genesis, but because they've talked so negatively about Hyundai...can't be caught dead in one, but if a luxury division was made and the Genesis were marketed under THAT name....they would jump on it in a minute. Isn't that the same as a wife getting mad at her husband and taking her ring off and throwing it somwhere? I mean...even with the ring off yoru finger...it doesn't change your status...you're still married (that always kills me), right? Just like Hyundai with a luxury division...in the end, it's still a Hyundai product. Is creating a luxury division really the answer for Genesis? I mean...Hyundai is having a tough enough time fighting for the respecability it deserves now. So a luxury division backed by Hyundai...how much credibility would that carry? You think Lexus had it tough when Toyota unveiled it...and Toyota was a HIGHLY respected automaker at the time. I think Hyundai doing it this way will benefit them later on down the road should they actually decide to bring a luxury division to the table. I mean...entry level luxury with the Azera (arguable) and then the Genesis Sedan & Coupe (coming next year). I wouldn't be surprised if the Veracruz ends up being the luxury suv (it is, after all, directly compared to the Lexus RX350). IF Hyundai has success with those vehicles, the moving into the luxury direction would happen with more credibility and less loss on their part. Of course this is just my opinion. Anyway, with the intial buzz of the Genesis, it would seem their entire product line will benefit in some way, shape or form. Folks that would otherwise not go into a Hyundai dealership may just go to see the Genesis and see the other cars that they offer and realize they've got a pretty nice line-up. They may get in and realize the Genesis is too much car for their bank account and end up in an Azera or Sonata. The Genesis can do a lot for Hyundai in regards to bringing in much credibility and respect that many don't want to give the automaker. Please don't get it twisted, yes I have owned 3 Hyundais in my life, yes I'm a fan of Hyundai, but don't think for a minute that I feel they've gotten everything right. There's still work to be done, but...they are headed in the right direction and THAT...can't be denied by any stretch of the imagination. If you want to deny Hyundai that respect, then you've been living under a rock or with your eyes/ears closed for the last decade to know and understand where they've come from, what they've done since then and where they're seemingly headed. |
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Replying to: allmet33 (Aug 25, 2008 7:37 am) http://seekingalpha.com/article/91977-will-hyundai-s-luxury-car-be-like-the-vw-p- haeton?source=yahoo As for the spelling of the Mazda and Mitsubishi upscale attempts I wasn't spending time looking them up, they are all non-starters, but it seems people understood what cars I was mentioning. Unfortunately telling people they should think differently just doesn't work, and yes, perception is reality in the market. Nameplates like BMW, and Mercedes earned those reputations, and as you said, Toyota was already well respected and had to sink a lot into creating an upscale nameplate, and the point is Hyundai is not yet in that class and it's going to be an uphill struggle. As I said, a large V-8 is where everyone has been, but is not where everyone is going, and those folks looking for that big V-8 are the very folks that are comfortable with the Lexus, BMW, Infinity, etc., and that is not going to change anytime soon. For now the best Hyundai can hope for is a near-Lux level and work from there. I hope they make it, it's always nice to have options in the marketplace. |
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Replying to: allavalons (Aug 25, 2008 8:47 am) As I said, the Genesis is already more successful in a little over a month than the whole run of the Phaeton in the US, as for Mazda and Mitsu, we'll see...but the sign is good based on early reports. Allmet offered some good perspective, in my opinion. Who is going the guranatee here had Hyundai offered a luxury division, it would succeed? Even its luxury competitors, Acura RL, well, the Genesis passed its sales last month. The Lexus GS has never been a big seller either. |
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Replying to: allavalons (Aug 25, 2008 8:47 am) Toyota was already well respected and had to sink a lot into creating an upscale nameplate, and the point is Hyundai is not yet in that class and it's going to be an uphill struggle. Which is why I made the statement that the way they are going now is better than jumping feet-first into a luxury division. Use the Genesis to springboard into that since this will be the car that will seemingly bring the respect Hyundai has been lacking. Not sure what you mean by near luxury, the Genesis has already been tabbed a luxury sedan by various media groups and plenty of posters that have tested one. Americans have always been power hungry, so a V-8 will always be around, however...with gas prices as they are, they are forcing those of us with less expendable money to think more wisely in our purchases, so yes...the V-6 will be the staple of the Gensis line. Personally, I think Hyundai will fare pretty nicely after it's all said and done. |
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