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Sedans Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison
6844 messages, Last post on Mar 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM
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Replying to: captain2 (Mar 17, 2008 11:19 am)
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Replying to: thegraduate (Mar 17, 2008 11:25 am) Using synthetic and given the type of driving I do, it is entirely conceivable that I'm not abusing anything by going 10 or 15k between oil changes - if the 'computer' tells me its OK. How would you think I would do explaining this to Toyota - do I win? - or is it simpler for me to just present them with a stack of oil change receipts showing all those changes at 5k intervals? |
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Replying to: alexstore (Mar 17, 2008 9:59 am) didn't say that exactly - even though Edmunds and Intellichoice seem to think so. Said it is very close, and the Avalon isn't necessarily a more expensive car - to own. TCO is a number that is highly dependent on what the actual purchase price of the car is (as well as what the resale value is)- if Edmund's/IC are basing their numbers on MSRP, for example, that would be unfair to the Azera simply because the Azera sells at higher discounts than the Avalon. Tires and other 'consumables' are not likely to effect TCO much, some Avalons come with Michelins that seem to wear better than those trims that come with Bridgestones, besides which, even if the Azera 'ate' tires - it still would only be a few hundred bucks added to a TCO that is in the tens of thousands. The cars that might be doing real well right now (from a TCO perspective) are most likely things like the Impala and the Taurus probably due to some really large initial discounts and despite probably poor resale values. |
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Replying to: captain2 (Mar 17, 2008 8:21 am) As for the TC/ESC, I don't know how much you drive in difficult winter conditions, but slush on top of ice at about 32 degrees, is about as bad as it can get. And, in the mountains you have to go up and downhill, so even at 20 mph or even much less, it can get interesting. Of course, the last time I had even a fender bender was in an Avalon, with its vehicle skid control, etc. When a van loses it, and crosses two lanes of traffic going downhill and is sliding crosswise toward you one car length in front of you, you will find that even the mighty Avalon is screwed, with its Michelins not getting any traction to turn or brake, even at no more than 10-15 mph. Now perhaps my Azera will perform better, but even I doubt it. Given that the two months with the highest snow totals in Colorado are March and April, I expect to see those conditions a few more times this spring. BTW, my other vehicle is an Explorer with studded snows. I believe as of 2007 every Hyundai model had the ESC capability, as standard equipment Unlike some manufacturers, like TOYOTA, which made it available as an extra cost option, speaking of cheap and valuing profit over safety. In fact, I think it is still an option on some Avalon models, isn't it??? I thought perhaps companies like Hyundai would shame them into making it a standard feature for 2008,but I guess not. Yep, still an option on a "cheap" Avalon. Guess some TOY fans will have to wait for the government to make safety a priorityfor its customers.
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Replying to: jaymagic (Mar 17, 2008 2:43 pm) If you're going to speak of one, you must speak of the other. The Hyundai Accent doesn't offer ESC, and the Elantra makes you get the top-of-the-line model in order to get it. You are awfully quick to sarcastically badmouth Toyota yet praise Hyundai when they both do the same thing with some vehicles in their lineup, even though Hyundai has it standard on some trims, it doesn't offer it on the "cheap" ones. Back on topic though, all Hyundai vehicles RELEVANT to this discussion have ESC standard, which, at this price level and size of car, should already be the case with all manufacturers I feel.
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Replying to: thegraduate (Mar 17, 2008 3:55 pm)
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Replying to: jaymagic (Mar 17, 2008 4:33 pm) Personally, I like the fact that it comes on automatically the next time the car is started. I rather forget to turn it off rather than turn it back on.
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Replying to: jaymagic (Mar 17, 2008 2:43 pm) you are right about that, would suspect that anybody who is spending the time to participate on these forums, would all be quite 'anal' about things like oil changes.  On a more serious note,and contrary to popular belief (not anything unusual for me) - I am quite suspicious of computers in the vehicles we drive. I have enough of an understanding of how things like ESC systems work, and also had an experience about 2 years ago in my non-ESC Avalon that I believe that I might not be here today if my car had this 'wonderful' 'safety' feature. Kinda been on a campaign ever since to correct a common misperception that ESC improves the way any vehicle handles. IT DOESN'T. Furthermore I believe that this misperception and the 'catcher's mitt' that these systems provide also ultimately lead to some really bad driving habits and drivers. Is it a 'safety' feature - certainly, but is it something that an enthusiast really wants on his car - maybe not. That depends entirely on how conservatively systems like this are implemented. This would not be a class of vehicles (the large 'family' sedan) that something like ESC would logically be implemented appropriately (for the enthusiast). Although these cars are not BMWs or Porsches or whatever, it doesn't mean that they can't be something we can 'enjoy'. So, in effect, we enthusiasts are at the mercy of some computer nerds (and liability lawyers). A dangerous 'Big Brother' path we are starting down, and now that the government has seen fit to get involved it will get even worse. So fine, Hyundai in 2005 (the Sonata?) gets a bit of a head start on what they know is going to federally mandated in a few years anyway - big deal - but, to me, the fact that I can't buy an Azera without the ESC is not something to brag on.  . |
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http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/18/new-york-08-preview-2009-nissan-maxima-leaked- - -on-forum/ Not sure about the front and rear but the rest (i.e. interior) looks great |
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Replying to: allmet33 (Mar 18, 2008 5:39 am) It would have to, if it is to be construed a 'safety' feature' as well as to avoid incurring the wrath of some lawyer down the road. Don't know of any car that doesn't do this when it is also giving the driver the option of shutting it off. However, there are some implementations of ESC, where even when turned off it is still on (Chryslers) and several implementations where there is no real option to shut it off at all (Toyotas) . And yes, I would imagine that all Azera drivers normally have it on because it would require a conscience effort to shut it off - that the reason why they do it that way. It's almost would have you wondering whether the car's computer records any incidences where the driver turned it off so that the mfgr. might protect itself from TV lawyers.
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