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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

6844 messages,  Last post on Mar 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM

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What is this discussion about? Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan

#4989 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [joe97] by tjc78 Feb 06, 2008 (10:49 am)
Replying to: joe97 (Feb 06, 2008 9:31 am) "where major hp increases were acheived, on both the I4 and V6, improvements on fuel efficiency were also the case"   Very true, lately it seems as if power and efficiency are going hand in hand. Lets see what the #s are when they are released and then whomever was right can say "I told you so" .
#4990 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [allmet33] by kdshapiro Feb 06, 2008 (10:54 am)
Replying to: allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 9:51 am) Okay...so really...the biggest advantage of RWD is the lack of torque steer, okay...gotcha.   And the ability scale the horsepower way beyone front wheel drive.
#4991 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [allmet33] by tjc78 Feb 06, 2008 (10:54 am)
Replying to: allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 9:34 am) "Joe...you can't tell these guys anything...they are pro-japenese"   I am not pro-anything. I buy whatever gives me the most value and what I conceive to be quality. The 2GR V6 has only one equal in this class of car and that is the Nissan VQ. The smoothness and eagerness to rev is exceptional and it still leads the pack in FE. I am not saying the Hyundai 3.8 is a bad engine, its just not the 2GR. Replies to this message: allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 11:07 am) dborth (Feb 06, 2008 12:01 pm) allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 12:14 pm) and 2 more...
#4992 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [tjc78] by allmet33 Feb 06, 2008 (11:07 am)
Replying to: tjc78 (Feb 06, 2008 10:54 am) Actually Tjc...I wasn't referring to you. I have conceded that the Hyundai 3.8 isn't a Toyota or Honda equivalent, a fact I know very well. The only thing I've stated is that one shouldn't overlook it and think that it's not "refined" in any way. Especially if they haven't taken the time to actually go look at one and take an Azera for a test drive (at least).   Have they started the Azera up to find that you can't tell the engine is running? Have they stepped on the gas pedal to find that their head would be crisply snapped back as the car takes off? Have they experienced how smoothly the car moves up through the gears? Have they experienced how lively the car actually accelerates and how easily it does so? The answer is, in most cases, "No." You just have folks voicing opinion and thoughts and then try to argue with someone that actually knows because they've actually driven and been in some of the other cars being compared.   That...is all I'm saying here. Replies to this message: dborth (Feb 06, 2008 12:01 pm) allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 12:14 pm) captain2 (Feb 07, 2008 6:24 am) and 1 more...
#4993 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [allmet33] by dborth Feb 06, 2008 (12:01 pm)
Replying to: allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 11:07 am) re 4992: Have they started the Azera up to find that you can't tell the engine is running? Have they stepped on the gas pedal to find that their head would be crisply snapped back as the car takes off? Have they experienced how smoothly the car moves up through the gears? Have they experienced how lively the car actually accelerates and how easily it does so?   Have they enjoyed the $3,000 savings, superior warranty, etc. etc.? Replies to this message: allmet33 (Feb 06, 2008 12:14 pm) captain2 (Feb 07, 2008 6:24 am) allmet33 (Feb 07, 2008 7:14 am)
#4994 of 6844 acceleration / mpg by autokritiker Feb 06, 2008 (12:10 pm)
You guys really crack me up sometimes. When did we all start racing large sedans from 0 to 100 MPH? Really, come on now! The everyday use of acceleration is passing, 20 to 40, or 45 to 65, etc.   There is a reason the Avalon has a slight acceleration edge over the Azera: The Avalon's transmission shifts quicker than the Azera's. Same when comparing other models. If you don't believe me, go drive an Avalon and an Azera. There's about a .2 to .3 second difference in the 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd upshifts. So add up the shift times, factor-in the slight weight difference, and that's where the slight acceleration differences come from. Has nothing to due with lack of engine refinement or engineering. Maybe Hyundai will give future cars "snappier" shift programming, or maybe they'll want to keep them a bit slower for other reasons.   As far as MPG is concerned, most people who buy cars are not enthusiasts, and they go by what they see on the "EPA" portion of the window sticker. For the most part, a difference of 2-or-so MPG between the EPA estimates is usually not earth-shattering for many people. We'll just have to wait and see how the future cars actually perform in real life. Keep in mind, some engines continue to get better fuel mileage up to 20,000 miles, and reviewers testing the car at 1,000, 5,000, 10,000 miles are not getting optimal efficiency out of the car at that point.
#4995 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [dborth] by allmet33 Feb 06, 2008 (12:14 pm)
Replying to: dborth (Feb 06, 2008 12:01 pm) Dborth...to some of those non-Hyundai types, the warranty is a gimmick. Then of course, they reason the $3000+ in initial savings is made up for by the fuel economy over time. However, what they fail to realize is...at a 2 mpg difference...it'll take a while to see that $3000+!!! LOL Replies to this message: captain2 (Feb 07, 2008 6:24 am) allmet33 (Feb 07, 2008 7:14 am)
#4996 of 6844 RL vs. Genesis by joe97 Feb 06, 2008 (12:19 pm)
I know the RL doesn't belong here, but the latest update was revealed today at the Chicago Auto Show. Man, one-sided thumbs down from pretty much everywhere, which is hard to find.   I bring this up b/c the Genesis was brought up a lot commenting on the RL, and this below about summed up the feelings most had:   "The Hyundai Genesis is gonna kick the RL's a$$ 8 days a week and 6 times on the weekends! I am very disappointed to say the most...."   What do you guys think of the chances the Genesis eating into RL's customers? Hardly a lot to start with but a start regardless for the Genesis to make a name for itself in the luxury segment... Replies to this message: pat (Feb 06, 2008 12:23 pm)
#4997 of 6844 Re: RL vs. Genesis [joe97] by pat HOST Feb 06, 2008 (12:23 pm)
Replying to: joe97 (Feb 06, 2008 12:19 pm) No, let's not go there. As you noted the RL does not belong here. It is not in a price range that would make it "mainstream" in any way.
#4998 of 6844 Re: What about MPG? [louiswei] by captain2 Feb 06, 2008 (3:34 pm)
Replying to: louiswei (Feb 06, 2008 10:02 am) a little bit of understeer is actually a good thing for daily driving yes it is, and yes most cars (even 50-50 BMWs) do understeer slightly at the limits because it is safer - the reactions required to keep the car under control is intuitive, meaning lifting the throttle and/or braking when you get in ' too deep'. Oversteering cars as you say are rare but can require more throttle to correct the same condition and are therefore not intuitive. Understeering cars will simply 'plow', scrub off speed, and' want' to straighten their paths. Overall I think it has more to do with the weight distribution than where the drive wheels are - those 60-70s RWD 'muscle cars' were also 60% or so front weight biased and also understeering 'nightmares' just like the FWD cars in this group really are, so being RWD is no guarantee of a balanced 'neutral' handling car, there is much more that goes into it. This is something that BMW in particular has succeeded at better than about anybody else in the industry - a 'balanced' and otherwise well engineered car.  Reminds me of the 70s vintage 911s (rear weight biased) - handled phenomenally of course - but were very tricky at the limits and would spin out violently if you didn't know what you doing - damn near killed myself in one - more years ago than I would care to admit.

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