Last post on Jul 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#1925 of 6854 Re: Genesis will win hands down... [tjc78]
Apr 23, 2007 (7:26 am)
agree- excluding those SC 'Gran Nationals' of 20 years ago, Buick has been nothing but an 'old folks' car - an extremely hard image to change. Even the Avalon is still fighting this - 2 years later. Think, however, that as the Impala goes so will the Buick 'copies', maybe a 2010 Lucerne that is RWD and with one of those V8s - just hope that gas isn't $5+/gallon by then because then those V6s will look a whole lot more appealing.
#1926 of 6854 Re: Large Sedans for Under $30,000 Comparision [joe131]
Apr 23, 2007 (9:52 am)
And what makes it any less of a sports sedan compared to Maximas of the past???
#1927 of 6854 Re: Gyroscopes with heavy flywheels.... [joe131]
Apr 23, 2007 (9:57 am)
One thing you'll never hear me say...the Azera is nimble! LOL
Don't get it twisted, I am well aware that the Azera is not the car you want to cut loose with on twists and curves of a mountain road. However, on a nice cruise down the highway...I'll take it!
I've been talking about acceleration, not handling. In a comparison to a Maxima...I do believe that the Azera will hang with it on a nice stretch of highway. Now you want to start talking corners, turns and curves...oh, the Maxima will leave the Azera behind. Trust and believe, I'm a realist and would not believe that the Azera is anything more than a highway cruiser.
#1928 of 6854 Re: Genesis will win hands down...[rockylee] [joe131] [captain2] [floridabob1] [captain2] [captain2] [cobrazera]
Apr 23, 2007 (10:07 am)
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm...spec out quite similarly with the G35??? I think not...more like the M's!!!
However, it's hard to know for sure until they drop definitive HP numbers, but Hyundai is saying well over 300 hp and the G is JUST over 300 hp.
Size-wise as well...the G specs out much closer to the Azera on interior space. The Genesis is supposed to bigger than the Azera.
Sorry...as much as folks want to knock the upcoming Genesis...it's hard to do so until numbers are concrete. Based on what has been printed on it thus far, it seems to be comparable to the 5-Series and E-Class, which also means it would compare more with the M and quite possibly the GS sedans as well.
#1929 of 6854 Re:silly ad? [joe131]
Apr 23, 2007 (10:09 am)
Joe, I'm glad someone else sees it that way!!!
I guess those same folks will really be burned by the Azera/Lexus LS commercial then, huh? LOL
#1930 of 6854 Re: Gyroscopes with heavy flywheels.... [allmet33]
Apr 23, 2007 (10:09 am)
the gyroscope analogy is a good one - those larger/heavier wheels are, if anything, going to want to limit the car's cornering and stopping abilities, despite the extra rubber on the road. Owned a 92 190hp Maxima, a wonderful car, that got close to 300k on it, it much smaller and 'tighter' than the version today, and some torque steer. Remembering what else was available in the early mid 90s, there really wasn't anything like it, save for some much more expensive German cars which, of course, had the added advantage of RWD and balance. To this day, FWIW, the Maxima does have a certain responsiveness to it that you don't find in this class, a responsiveness you don't find in Avalons or Azeras.
#1931 of 6854 Heh.. You better watch your back, Lexus...
Apr 23, 2007 (10:11 am)
Buick is making some real sleepers these days that really do a number on the competition.
The top end Lucerne for instance... yes, the 3800 model is a bloated toad. But the CXS(or upcoming super)... They really should make it a different name/model it's so drastically imporved.
The Magnetic Ride suspension is fully 3/4 of the difference right there. Torque-steer is *gone*. No, really - I was wanting to hate it. My dad and mom have a LeSabre and a Park Ave Ultra and so I know the 3800/Buick feel.(blech) The CXS... no torque steer. no wide-open-throttle lag(tm). It moved exactly like a Mercedes S420 used to. Solid, stable, and great in traffic. 0-60? With only three gears in town(overdrive really is for highway speeds), it has loads of power and a sense of immediancy that the 6 cylinder cars lack. 10-30, 20-40, and simmilar transitions didn't require a downshift - just more gas and presto. Yes, it's not as "fast", but it drives like the best VVT 6 you've ever driven. They set it up for torque and smoothness instead of winning some drag race.
Hint - the bigger your engine, the fewer gears you need if it's set up right. Now, something like a 2.0L engine in a F1 racecar... needs a boatload of gears. A 5-8L V8? Three plus overdrive is just about right. The Camry/etc - they have a V6 with 5 or 6 gears? Considering that the engine develops maximum HP at close to 5000rpm, more gears robs power like crazy. (most 0-60 times are done manually shifting the automatic and leaving it in 2nd gear until it hits 60mph) Not typical driving by any means.
This was the first Buick since the Grand National that I had test-driven that you could take a typical city corner at 30mph and the thing didn't lean or wobble. My brain literally had a moment of disconnect because the idea of this car and "Buick" suddenly didn't fit together anymore.
It's also why I'm looking forward to the new CTS. GM has gotten agressive finally - FINALLY - and started to go after Mercedes and BMW and the rest.
P.S. The 3800 is a great engine. It's really hard to actually kill one(barring the coolant fiasco. - the car runs fine on the old green antifreeze, GM!)
The transmission, yes, it's not any more reliable than the others. But I can get that 4 speed in a Lucerne or LaCrosse rebuilt for $1200-$1600 all over town.
#1932 of 6854 Re: Genesis will win hands down...[rockylee] [joe131] [pat] [rockylee] [batista] [rockylee] [captain2]
Apr 23, 2007 (10:57 am)
Is it fair to put the 300C/Charger R/T up there since those are V-8 Hemi's??? You're talking 340 hp compared to below 300 hp with the V-6's the other's are pushing. If anything, you would compare the 300 (Touring)or the Charger (base) both with the 250 hp V-6...in which case, those standings may change.
What's really sad is that it takes the Lucerne with the Northstar to compete with the any of the V-6's from Toyota, Nissan, Honda or Hyundai. Same with the Chevy Impala SS...you drop down LTZ and you only get 233 hp with the V-6.
That being the case, your list would look more like...
6)Lucerne (LOL) Gotta laugh since it isn't even pushing out 200hp!!!
#1933 of 6854 Re: Heh.. You better watch your back, Lexus... [plekto]
Apr 23, 2007 (11:00 am)
"Hint - the bigger your engine, the fewer gears you need if it's set up right."
Tell that to Lexus...the bigger their engines, the more gears they see fit to throw in the tranny!!! Look at the LS with the first ever 8-speed automatic!!!
Only problem with a 4 speed tranny...they cause a car to run so loudly!!!
#1934 of 6854 Re: Genesis will win hands down...[rockylee] [joe131] [pat] [rockylee] [batista] [rockylee] [captain2] [allmet33]
Apr 23, 2007 (12:41 pm)
the R/T is hemi equipped (340hp), the Impala SS a 303hp V8 and both been known to run in the 5s, the Lucerne is only going to get close with the Northstar V8. The Avalon, Maxima, and Azera (6s) will outrun the Northstar (7s) but not the other 2 V8s. The 300/Chargers (also the 7s)with the 3.5 are not slow in the same vein as the 500 or the 3.8 Lucerne (something approaching 0-60 in a month and a half)