Last post on Jul 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#1506 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [tjc78]
Mar 30, 2007 (6:57 am)
how about this - Toyota has 2 sedans in 2004, that are essentially identical, both with 200hp V6s, one of which is called the Avalon is the 'flagship' and is slugging along at 3000 sales/ month, the other is called a Camry and it is the best selling car in the US, at more than 30000/month despite being 'limited' power wise. Toyota already had this new engine designed (obviously a solid entry in the HP race) - oh dear - what to do? Maybe exactly what they did do - put the engine in the Avalon, a completely new car not even related to the Camry anymore, and change something had been talked about in the same sentences as Buick, into something completely different - sales jumped from 3000 to about 10000/month. I think it even surprised them and for quite awhile you couldn't even find one on the lots. And, in the process, Toyota can now use their experiences gained in the Avalon before they 'take a chance' by putting the engine in the best selling car in the country and several other models - sounds like a pretty solid plan to me?
Derate the engine for use in the Camry? WHY? Instead they can set a new standard, one that still exists to this day?
#1507 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [louiswei]
Mar 30, 2007 (6:58 am)
Okay...now you're muddying your history and stats. Actually, the Avalon with the 2GR debuted (as an '05) before the '06 Sonata, and the 2Gr had 280 HP. Discussion over!
Then, Hyundai dropped the Sonata with 240 HP, and then the Azera with 263 HP. Funny, THEN Toyota decides to show up with the Camry with the 2GR pumping 268 HP. Am I right? Thank you...discussion over.
So really...you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP. Toyota probably could have designed it any way they wanted to give any output they desired...now isn't that on of the purposes of the design of the 2GR?
My question is this, do you have any stat or history to prove that had Hyundai not dropped the 263 HP Azera, that Toyota would have still given the Camry a 268 HP output? No...discussion over, thank you very much!
Oh yeah, and what I was saying is...the re-designed Camry intially came out with a smaller engine, right? They did the re-design with the 2GR in mind, right? Do I need to simplify for you? The re-designed Camry had an engine bay bigger than what the current engine needed because Toyota knew they were going to eventually put the 2GR in it! DUHHH! No need to re-work anything, just drop the 2GR in and keep on going!
#1508 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:08 am)
The 280HP is non-SAE rated and 268HP is SAE rated. At end of the day, they have the SAME OUTPUT.
No, the re-designed Camry did NOT initially come out with a smaller engine. It came out with the current 268HP 2GR-FE which is about 99.9% same as the one on Avalon.
The 06' Camry is the old model.
The 07' is the new model.
Why would Toyota drop the 2GR into the 06' when 07' is just around the corner? I really don't understand what your point is.
As matter of fact, since Avalon was introduced before the might 06' Sonata with the 268HP 2GR it further solidified my "speculation" that Hyundai did NOT force Toyota to enter the HP war.
#1509 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:14 am)
you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP
Nope again, Toyota didn't 'rework or ease' the HP on anything, the 12hp decrease was NOT a result of any engine change - it was simply a result of SAE testing method changes qand rules and effected primarily Honda and Toyota products for the 06 model year.
#1510 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:16 am)
Stating first my happy ownership of an Azera (having had an Avalon and an XG350L), let me join in by saying I do think Hyundai has been more of a follower than a leader (except with warranties, which its previously lousy build/repair record forced).
The new version Avalon was out with the 2GR engine a year before the Sonata or Avalon. But who cares. What Hyundai seems to do is to let other brands bring out a technology, then improve it, see what the public thinks, and then Hyundai offers it for less money, or on more of its models. Vehicle Stabilization or Hyundai's Electronic Stability Control is an example. The first time I had it it was in an 00 Avalon XLS, where it was standard equipment with that trim. I loved it. I noticed that the next year, it became an option even on the highest content Avalon. (I think it put the Avalon too close to Lexus territory). What Hyundai has done is to put it in virtually all its models (high and low) as standard equipment. No other manufacturer I am aware of, has done that. It might be fair to say that Hyundai follows technology from other brands and then leads in making it more readily available.
I know the engine in the concept Genesis is a brand new one for Hyundai (but making a V8 is not exactly a new technology). What I expect is for Hyundai again to take "high end" technology like adaptive cruise control, HID lights, heated and cooled seats, etc., and offer them in a vehicle for far less than other brands are charging. I doubt any thing on the "Genesis" will be bleeding edge, but expect it to be within view of cutting edge and all of it tested, well built, and amazingly affordable for all we will get.
Is that leading or following. In my mind it is a little of both, Hyundai is not an "early adaptor", but they now do a very decent job of copying and refining, and then lead in bringing it out on a wider scale at a better price. And they are now building cars of quality.
That is what Toyota and others have to worry about. They must worry about the amount they spend on research and development to be cutting edge (bleeding being left to the Germans) and getting the public to want the technology and then having Hyundai (and I assume others like the Chinese) then building on what they developed and selling it without having had the massive up front development costs.
Previously, I think Toyota under the Lexus Division did exactly the same thing to BMW and MB as Hyundai is now doing to Toyota. And we have all benefited from that tactic (unless you have stock in or work for Ford, GM, or Chrysler).
#1511 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [louiswei]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:22 am)
Oh my...you are right about the Camry issue. Sorry.
However...you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know.
Maybe Hyundai, specifically, didn't force them into the HP wars, however...the timing of everything sure makes it look like they did!!!
Heck...if it wasn't for Nissan and Honda jumping the way they did, they would all be plugging along!
#1512 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [jaymagic]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:27 am)
Very well stated!!!
#1513 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:29 am)
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...wrong, the stated output for the Avalon is 280 HP, the Camry...268 HP. It must be as such or Toyota will face a class action law suit like Hyundai did over the HP discrepancy concerning the 02-03 models.
#1514 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:38 am)
you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know
actually, I think I do, and I believe the answer is that they couldn't care less, the XG 350, at that time not being competitive to the old Avalon in their minds, never mind the new one. Same really applies to the Sonata as well, Toyota (however mistakenly) is much more concerned with what Honda and Nissan are doing. The well conceived Azera, OTH, a much different color of horse, IMPO.
#1515 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [jaymagic]
Mar 30, 2007 (7:42 am)
Whoops, meant the 2GR was out before the Sonata or AZERA.
BTW, are there any car companies that have not significantly made available increased HP over the last 5 years??? Finally even Ford has upped the HP in the 500/Taurus.
If the race is on, then the Bugatti Veyron with 1000HP has won. Of course, I could not afford to insure it, let alone own it. So, what is the point of who got to whatever hp first???