Last post on Jul 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#1459 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 28, 2007 (12:17 pm)
You are absolutely right, the reason for that...they were busy working on the dependability formula. They were working on modeling themselves after Toyota in terms of reliability. So in reality, the HP wars were not their bag at the time. However, with the proven increased reliability beginning with their '02 line-up, a few years later...Hyundai emerged in the middle of the HP wars with Toyota following right behind.
The wars didn't really start with the Maxima because if you look...the Avalon and Maxima were neck and neck in almost every category. Then, Nissan decided to go sporty and turned the Maxima into the 4dr sports sedan. However, the HP didn't really start being a drastic change until the introduction of the '02 Altima (240 HP) and then the restyling of the Maxima followed with a hefty 265 HP stallion under the hood. Immediately after Nissan introduced the 3.5 240 HP Altima, Honda shored up the Accord with it's own 240 HP power plant. Toyota, in the meantime was still busy churning out bland, senior citizen scoot-abouts. 2005, Hyundai turns the Sonata from a 170 HP bench warmer (at this point), into a 240 HP contender. 2006 shows up and they release the 263 HP Azera. Lo & behold...Toyota feels left out and pumps the Camry up with a 268 HP engine along with it's badly needed restyling. The Avalon benefitted as well, considering it sat at 190 HP for the longest, then an increase to 210. Finally with the last one putting the Avalon in contention with the Azera, Maxima and Accord.
Back when Nissan was putting 4DSC on the rear windows...it still didn't have 200 HP.
Heck, Ford had a 3.0 V-6 back in '92, but it was pumping out a whopping 145 HP then!!! LOL
V-6's have come a long way baby!!!
#1460 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 28, 2007 (12:19 pm)
Yeah...that is one market that Chrysler had a strangle-hold on, but I wouldn't say that it was enough to call them a power house company. That might have beent he only thing keeping them going aside from the 300 M. The Concorde, which was Chysler's version of the Toyota Camry (dependability-wise) faded into the LHS, which simply faded into oblivion.
#1461 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 28, 2007 (12:35 pm)
owned a 92 Maxima, 190hp which was 40 or 50 more than otherwise available, very quick and somewhat quirky (torque steer). The Camrys/Avalons which were then ostensibly the same car were close in HP (180 if I remember right), but as is Toyota tradition, quite softer rides. The Maxima later evolved in 222 hp out of the same 3 liters in '00 - but during a 10-15 year period (89-02), it remained the 'performance' sedan of choice unless you could learn to love the Yamaha engined Taurus SHO. Kind of reminds you how barren the automotive landscape was back in those days! The '02 Altima was so outrageous, that I just had to buy one the following year
#1462 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 28, 2007 (12:46 pm)
You have proven my point...a 10 HP difference wasn't that big a deal and considering nothing was really over 200 HP except for true sport coupes. However, as you stated, the Maxima went up to 222 HP in '00 and the Avalon followed in Toyota tradition with it's 210 HP offering.
Like I said...it wasn't until '02 with the Altima that the companies starting really trying to one-up each other!
So, while the Avalon always offered the softer ride, it still had over 200 HP as well. The Maxima has always been the "performance" sedan of choice, as it was practically the only sport sedan offering at the time that was worth a darn! The SHO was popular for a while, but it never really evolved much. Ford had an opportunity to jump on it, but I guess they didn't know how to proceed or what direction to go.
#1463 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 28, 2007 (1:25 pm)
well it may be was the performance sedan of choice if you disqualify the BMWs of that era. The 200hp Avalons/Camrys were nowhere near as quick or responsive as the 222hp or even the 190hp Maximas which had a 10 year production run. The SHOs, IMO, were just flat ugly and were limited production with I believe some associated mechanical problems. Later morphed into a Yamaha V8, kind of what GM is attempting to do now with the Impala SS. Interestingly enough, Yamaha is still building some engines for Ford, the latest making its appearance in V8 Volvos.
My 92 Maxima BTW ended up never being in the shop for almost 300k b4 the tranny finally cratered (my fault) - a great car. My wife still drives the 03 Altima, also never in the shop, but it is just getting broken in (70k)!
#1464 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [captain2]
Mar 28, 2007 (1:33 pm)
I agree with you on all points.
Yeah...70K miles, is definitely just getting started!
#1465 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 28, 2007 (3:03 pm)
In 98 when the merger was finalized Chrysler was still going OK, but the Jeep line and the minivans were just over the peek. Had the merger not gone through many believed Chrysler would have been in big trouble much earlier.
They can't seem to be able to capitalize on their successes such as the 300C.
#1466 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 28, 2007 (3:48 pm)
The Maxima SE with a 5-speed stick and V-6 engine was a (the?) leading 4-door sports sedan even back in 1985 when it switched to front wheel drive. Before that it was direct competition to the Toyata Cressida, another rear wheel driver.
Then in 1989 with a total redesign and a 160 HP engine it re-established itself as an even stronger sport sedan entry and distanced itself further from the new Cressida, which had continued its aim at luxury (and power with a 190 HP V-6).
Again, in 1992, Maxima power was upped to 190 HP. It competed with and was found better than the 220 HP Ford Taurus SHO in the car magazines of the day.
The Maxima SE continued to be the best value sports sedan up until the 1995 makeover in which it lost much of its sporting character.
#1467 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [allmet33]
Mar 28, 2007 (3:55 pm)
Ford also had the SHO 3.0 liter motor making 220 HP then.
#1468 of 6854 Re: any difference between chinese and Korean cars? [floridabob1]
Mar 28, 2007 (3:56 pm)
As I stated earlier, in '98, Chrysler was doing well. The "new" ('94 era) Ram truck was peaking in sales, the LH line (Intrepid/Concorde/LHS/300) had just been remodeled, the new Stratus/Sebring and Neon were in production and Chrysler was creating enthusiasm for their products by producing cars like the Viper, the Prowler, and the soon to be released PT Cruiser. On top of that, they had the bread and butter minivan which kept the cash flowing.
I'm sure there are some who say it was a move of necessity for them to agree to the "merger" but I believe it was more of a cashout on their recent successes.
Like it has been stated in the many rebuttals, MB has used nothing from Chrysler in their products so their reliability can't be linked to Chrysler. Captain's mention of CU's lowest reliability rating in relationship to the merger only only goes to the bias many feel they have toward "American" manufacturers. The whole argument is ludicrous since nearly all top management was shown the door immediately after deal went through. As for any Chrysler financial woes hurting MB reliability, I really don't see superior engineers or business moguls cutting costs on their flagship fleet, with tons of profit built in, to cover what you claim to be shoddy, cheap, and inferior products.
While it could be argued that MB may not have been able to bring Chrysler production up to MB standards, there is no logical explanation as to how Chrysler could drag down MB. It is even arguable that MB was any better to start. As one of the other posters noted, "routine" maintenance for a MB has always been much more than the American version of routine.