Last post on Jul 16, 2012 at 7:08 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Buick Lucerne, Chevrolet Impala, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Azera, Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#1291 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [allmet33]
Mar 09, 2007 (9:56 am)
and sales of the 2004 'boring' model were hanging in there at about 3000 cars/month, the 05 model hit the skids at closer to 8000 units almost immediately - and not commercial one. Kind of what happened to me, had no idea that Toyota was completely redoing the Avalon and was really considering the G35 and TL. By chance, happened by a Toyota dealer and saw a strange looking vehicle on the sidewalk. Drove it, liked it, saved a couple of grand (bought the Touring), and the rest is history. The car sold itself primarily because of the engine, and I violated one of my personal 'prime directives' doing so - never buy any car in its first year. The fact that it is a Toyota helped me overlook that one.
Incidentally, a neighbor who owns a loaded to the gills 04 Camry, visited me in my driveway - and made some comments about how he couldn't justify the extra money for the Avalon when he bought. After explaning to him that it was not an optioned out Camry anymore -he was handed a set of keys. I think it scared him a little bit (even got an ahh s---!), but you never guess what appeared in his driveway a couple of months later!
#1292 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [captain2]
Mar 09, 2007 (10:57 am)
I can imagine...jumping into the '05 Avalon from an '04 Camry is like when I jumped out of my '02 Sonata into my '06 Azera...WHOA!!!
I think that was the biggest problem Toyota had was the Avalon was really a more expensive Camry. Hyundai had that same problem with the Sonata and the XG. Yeah...you got a few more bells and whistles, a couple more ponies under the hood, but when it came to the interior space...they were almost identical. The XG never really came across as a 'flagship' type of car. The Azera, however...does so wtih class!
It took Toyota a while to catch up in the horsepower game. When Nissan dropped the 240 hp Altima, Honda quicky followed suit by boosting up the Accord...accordingly. Hyundai didn't do so right away, but they knew if they were to be taken seriously, they had to do something credible with the Sonata, thus...it got 240 ponies under the hood. It wasn't until then that Toyota woke up and realized..."Uh oh, we gotta do something!" Thus, they quickly started putting solid engines in the Avalon and the Camry.
I wonder what's going to happen now that the Altima offers the 270 hp powerplant!
#1293 of 6854 Re: Ford's name game [captain2]
Mar 09, 2007 (10:59 am)
My second car ( the Azera is really the wife's ) is a '99 Mustang Cobra with IRS. Handles great on bumpy roads, but the downside is severe wheelhop on dumped clutch starts. BMW has the same problem with it's M5 ( manual trans ) and so does Cadillac CTS-V. It would seem that it's difficult to control the hop unless they go to excessively stiff springs. Solid axle Mustangs don't have that problem, nor do Corvettes. Chevy solved it, apparently.
#1294 of 6854 Re: Ford's name game [cobrazera]
Mar 09, 2007 (11:08 am)
axle ho a RWD problem, a SS Camaro I had many many years ago was terrible (and dangerous to drive in the snow) because of it - the new Mustang is solid rear axle is it not?.
#1295 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [allmet33]
Mar 09, 2007 (11:29 am)
in the case of the Altima, it has been a very quick car with the VQ ever since 2002 - the 2007 not a big change in the power dept. except for the CVT. The XG350, I always regarded as somewhat of a 'pig' - overweight and too soft (Amanti), unremarkable at best. The Azera is a significant leap forward (as is the rest of the car) into what a good V6 ought to be, although I personally find the Azera too Buick-like for my tastes - same for the 'non-sport' Avalon trims. And I actually don't like the 'standard' stability/traction control, although that would probably not stop me from buying the Azera, the FE might.
#1296 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [captain2]
Mar 09, 2007 (11:44 am)
Are you kidding...when the 02 Altima dropped, it was only sporting 240 hp. Then, a couple years down the road, they came out with the Altima SE-R model that was kicking out 260 hp. Now the SE comes with 270 hp.
The XG 350, while unique in look (to a degree)...didn't have enough to truly distinguish it as a 'flagship' model.
The Amanti...well, it's a poor man's Benz really. It is overweight and soft, but it was never purported to be anything of a sports sedan by any stretch of the imagination.
Azera...too Buick-like??? Buick could only HOPE to create something like an Azera. Not to say that the Lucerne isn't a nice car, but it's no Azera. You would have to get the Lucerne with the V-8 to be able to compete with an Azera...sorry, no competition there. Also, why would the stability/traction control scare you away...you can turn it off you know!
#1297 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [allmet33]
Mar 09, 2007 (12:01 pm)
the other car I own, an 03 Altima 3.5, 4 speed auto, and not significantly slower than the new 270hp CVT (both will run well into the 6s 0-60). Benzes are anything but soft, more BMW like.
I agree and have said earlier that "Detroit" could only wish to have what Hyundai currently has in the Sonata and Azera - and I think that the Azera is probably properly sprung for the average American driver taste - on the softer side! This would certainly be a strange objection from an Avalon owner, wouldn't it? Such is the difference between the Av Touring and XLS/LTD.
VSC/TC adversion all has to do with limitations that these systems mustput on any vehicle's handling capabilities, which I've been talking about in these forums for months now - trust me, you don't want to get me started.
#1298 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [captain2]
Mar 09, 2007 (12:25 pm)
Well, considering the Altima has turned into what the Maxima was at one point...a sport sedan, I'm not surprised.
The Azera is sprung a bit on the soft side, however...it's a luxury car, not a sport sedan. That is why I am so surprised that folks have an issue with the softer ride. Funny thing is, it can handle the driving that most Americans will do in it on a daily basis better than they think. I've driven mine hard a few times and came away pleasantly surprised. Maybe one thing that would be nice in the future is an adjustable suspension option.
The only thing that kills me is that folks look at a car and want it to be more than it really is. They mention the 7 second 0-60 time on the Azera and almost speak negatively on it...it's not a barn burner, but...it's not slow either. The handling, again...it's supposed to be an entry level luxury car, not touring/sports sedan.
While ESC/TC can limit some things, it enhances others. IMO...it's sorta like ABS. It can help you in the right conditions, but is it REALLY needed??? I had owned 7 cars prior to my Azera and none of them had ESC/TC nor did they have ABS and honestly...never really felt they were needed.
However, the ESC/TC has come in handy on my Azera when I turn onto an inclined street that's wet. Every car without it will spin out until the tires finally grab. My Azera will start to spin, but then the TC takes over and limits the spin-out to minimal and I'm on my way.
Again...is it a feature I really NEED, no. It is nice to have and I'm glad that I can swtich it off.
#1299 of 6854 Re: Limited price ..........so what? [allmet33]
Mar 09, 2007 (12:40 pm)
read this - an older road test for several of the cars in this group and pay attention to what they have to say about ESC in the 300, as well as the ride etc. in the Avalon tested. My contention is ESC can't, by any definition, enhance handling - but it can allow for control where you otherwise might not be able to handle it, much like ABS (which doesn't shorten stopping distances) it only allows more control. Hyundai should be lauded for the off switch, some mfgrs. don't do this and you end up at the mercy of what some computer geek (or lawyer) has decided are your abilities to handle a car properly. My only experience, incidentally exploring the effects of ESC interevention BTW, a Sonata - and it does limit cornering speeds etc as they are designed to do.
see told you, don't get me started.
#1300 of 6854 XG good budget limo [allmet33]
Mar 09, 2007 (1:04 pm)
The XG 350 L, when not pushed hard, is a very satisfying cruiser, and cheap! It has good low RPM torque and is very smooth, engine and suspension. Just go slow around corners and over bumps. It ain't no sports sedan.