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Sedans Nissan Altima Nissan Altima Engine Failures
500 messages, Last post on Nov 29, 2009 at 8:42 PM
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Replying to: altilove89 (Jun 05, 2009 9:59 am)
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Replying to: reddeyez (Oct 27, 2007 8:36 am) |
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I have a 2002 Nissan Altima 2.5 S which I bought new. It has always has all recommended maintenance performed and all maintenance has been performed by the Nissan dealership. The other day the check service engine soon light came on soon after I started the car. A couple of times in the last few days I had noticed that when I first started the car in the mornings it ran i little rough (not much) for about 5 seconds immediately after starting but that was barely noticable and almost immediately stopped after which the engine ran perfectly. I decided to drop it by the dealership and have it serviced. The last maintenance (oil change) had been done about 3000 miles ago, so it was time for scheduled maintenance, so I was also having the oil changed and the tires rotated. After about an hour the service guy came out and told me that the code on the service engine soon was a "cylinder 2 misfire." He said my antifreeze was a little low and they were doing a compression test as it could be a head gasket problem. He said the slight roughness for a few seconds when the car was started in the mornings was probably because antifreeze had leaked into the cylinder and once it burned off (a couple of seconds) the roughness went away. Because it was going to take them a while to do the test I told them to just call me when the car was ready and I left and went on to work. Serveral hours later the service guy called and said it was a head gasket problem, but he really thought I needed a new engine ($5300). They had found a little coolant in the cylinder and he said my oil was 1/2 quart low and although the catalytic converter didn't show as bad, he was afraid that if I just had the head gasket replaced ($1800), the engine would still probably need to be replaced and the head gasket replacement would be for nothing. This car only has 66,300 miles on it, has always has all recommended maintenance performed by the dealership, and has never been driven "rough" as I am a very conservative driver. I have read about other problems with this engine and the catalytic converter (or pre converter) failing and resulting in engine damage requiring engine replacement. This has really bummed me out. I bought this car because I was told, and had read, much about Nissan's reputation for solid cars that ran a long time. Now, here I am with a car with only 66,300 miles (it should just be getting broken in good) and I'm being told that I should replace the engine. If a well-maintained, conservatively driven car has engine failure at 66,300 miles, that sure seems like a manufacturing defect to me. I have read that the catalytic converter is warrantied for 80K miles and if this is true, and it had anything to do with the engine problem, it seems to me that this engine should be replaced by Nissan, especially now that I have read that this is a somewhat common problem with the 2002 Altima engines. I picked the car up and told them I would have to decide what I wanted to do. He said when the light came back on to bring it back so they could see if it gave the same code and he wouldn't charge me for that diagnostic. He also told me to check the oil about every 3 days and if it went down, don't fill it but bring it to them and let them see how much oil was being used (oil comsumption test). It's been five days and no service engine soon light, the oil level is fine and the car runs fine; there is not even any roughness when I initially start the car in the mornings as I had noticed a couple of times previously. Does all of this sound right? I'm not sure what to do and the thought of having to spend over $5K on repairs has me sick. FYI, I went back and read all the posts on this forum and it seems as if some people have been able to get Nissan to cover the repairs and others have not. If I do have to pay for a new engine myself, would I be better off price wise trying to find a good independent mechanic to do it? If I have to pay for all of this myself, my faith in Nissan will be destroyed. |
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Replying to: brossr (Jun 07, 2009 4:55 pm) Why exactly did he say you need a new engine? You need a new head gasket - but why? What broke in your engine to cause the gasket to become fouled? These cars DON'T burn oil and have gaskets go bad out of the blue - and I would bet money that if you only replace the gasket - your engine will experience a catastrophic failure that can only be remedied with replacement - either of the car or the engine. I would also bet money that the gasket is f-ed up because catalytic converter material has gotten sucked back to the engine....this is an event known as "BLOW BY". (It is a physical impossibility for the 3.5 to experience blow by because of the 'Y' shaped exhaust...I called 4 Nissan dealers and asked and all of them said this.) I don't want to bum you out even more, but if I were you, especially given the info from Nissan, I would file suit under the lemon law (what state are you in?) and get a full refund for the car, because I can guarantee that these issues will continue. The only way that you can avoid these issues if you can't or don't want to get rid of the vehicle, would be to make some modifications to your vehicle yourself. There is a guy that has postings for the same vehicle as you that did this and I pasted his advice below... Well people, I think I have a handle on this oil consumption problem with the Nissan Altima 2.5S. Maybe not a solution, but at least a good understanding of what is happening and why. My daughter has a 2002 Nissan Altima 2.5S that she bought in December 2003 with 29,730 miles. It is starting to exhibit excessive oil burning at 97,000 miles. At the last oil change service, she came in with the engine oil very low, so low it would not even touch the end of the dipstick, the dipstick would pull out dry. I told her to check the oil frequently now, at least once every two weeks, and she now keeps a spare bottle of oil in the trunk. I have done all the service on this car since she has had it, so it has had excellent service. It always receives full synthetic motor oil and synthetic motor oil filter. We are monitoring it now to see what rate it is using the oil. There are no oil leaks at all, so it must be consuming the oil. I guessing right now about 1 quart in about a 1000 miles. I have a good idea of what could be causing this to happen because of several events that have happened. First, I heard and read about the TSB and Recall on SOME of the cars about the problem with the precatalytic converter. My daugher took her car to the dealer and asked if this precatalyst recalled applied to her car, They looked up the VIN, and of course they said no. My understanding is that "under certain conditions", material from within the precatalyst can get sucked back into the engine, and the small particles can damage the cylinders, rings and plugs while bouncing around in the engine. I always thought this was very odd, as exhaust gas is supposed to be coming OUT of the engine, and INTO the precatalyst, and then OUT the precatalyst and DOWN the exhaust pipe and OUT the tail pipe. SO, how could this material go back up into the engine when all this exhaust gas is supposed to be coming out? It would seem that there would have to be some kind of pressure or force from somewhere to push the material back through the engine exhaust ports into the engine, but from where? So I thought about this for a while, then my daughter calls and says her 2002 Alitima 2.5S is making this strange sound, like air whoosing, when she steps on the gas, and the engine had very little power. But she kept driving it for a while until she could get by my house for me to look at it. When I did look at it, it did indeed make a strange whoosing sound, like a sound of rushing air when I stepped on the gas, at idle it sounded almost normal. So I looked underneath the car and I found exhaust gas was gushing out of the point where the bottom of the exhaust manifold/precatalyst is connected to the exhaust pipe with 2 springs and a gasket. It makes kind of a flexible connection so the the engine can rock back and forth a little bit. So I said that there must be quite a bit of pressure in the exhaust pipe for it to be leaking out like that with such force. So then I went to the back of the car to see how much gas was coming out the tail pipe, and when I checked I could feel none! When she revved the engine, I could barley feel a bit of exhaust gas. The exhaust was plugged up! So I got underneath the car and found that the exhaust pipe continues under the center of the car until it gets to this 2nd Catalytic converter before the muffler, it looks like a double cone, narrow at each end and fat in the middle. I felt the temperature of the exhaust pipe, and it was hot near the exhaust manifold, but got cooler as I felt closer to the 2nd catalytic converter. When I felt the 2nd catalytic converter, it was still cold, even after the engine ran for several minutes. That means it was plugged up! I unbolted the pipe and 2nd catalytic converter and took it off and unplugged it, put it back on, and the car ran perfect again. The gasket at the flexible connection was still perfectly good. The exhaust gas had been allowed to leak out at that point due to the spring connectors, when the pressure in the pipe got high enough the springs would compress, allowing the joint to open slightly, and allow the exhaust gas to leak out. Therefore, the pressure was high in the exhaust pipe all the way from the engine exhaust ports to the 2nd catalytic converter. This section of precatalyst/exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe has a volume and acts like a pressure tank holding high pressure when the engine is running, having higher pressure when the engine runs faster. So this is what happens, the exhaust coming out the engine exhaust ports is not a constant flow, as the exhaust valves are opening and closing very fast, so the gas comes out pulsating, pushing against the already high pressure in the precatalyst. At the end of a strong pulse, the high pressure in the precatalyst can actually push some gas back up into the exhaust port, because of the high gas pressure in the precatalyst. So, the Exhaust gas is exhausting into high pressure, and some of the high pressure can push back up into the exhaust ports in between the high pressure pulses of exhaust gas coming out of the exhaust ports. Under "certain conditions" it is possible for material to blow from the precatalyst back into the engine causing engine damage. Continued in the next posting.... |
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Replying to: brossr (Jun 07, 2009 4:55 pm) So, what does all this mean? I believe the problem originates with the design of the exhaust system, having the 1st catalytic converter so very close to the exhaust ports. I don't know of any other car that has the 1st catalytic converter built into the exhaust manifold so close to the exhaust ports. The problem doesn't seem to arise until there is backpressure in the system that can cause the precatalyst material to blow back into the engine. The date that I unplugged the cat was 09/01/2007, and it has been running fine since then. I am talking about the SECOND CAT, the one under the middle of the car, right before the muffler. The car had been running very poorly for about a month before, because the cat was clogged. No problems since then, but we are watching to see how the oil consumption goes. We did not notice it consuming any oil between oil changes until it reached 97,000 miles. I am thinking the cat could have gotten clogged from oil in the exhaust. I was still debating if the oil in the exhaust caused the cat to clog, or did the cat clog and cause the engine damage and thus the oil to burn in the engine. I tend to think that they both contribute to each other, but most likely the problem would originate with the oil consumption problem first, which would make oil in the exhaust that would clog the cat. Did your original cat clog up too, or partially clog, or what? Since you have a new cat installed, is the engine still burning oil (a quart every 1000 miles, or using more oil than that)? If it is still burning a little oil, I think the cat will eventually clog again, but I don't know how long that would take, probably depends the most on how much oil it burns. Since you say it's not burning oil right now, the cat may last quite a while yet. Most important, see how much oil it uses between oil changes. I can't endorse unclogging the cat, because it is required by law to be on there. Don't mess with yours unless it's clogged. Mine is still on there, but it is a wide open pipe now. It was easy to remove if you are good at working on cars. To remove, jack up the car and set safely on sturdy jack stands. Safety First. Spray WD-40 on all the bolts before you try to loosen them, the bolts may be rusted tight. Remove the 2 bolts with springs at the front connection to the exhaust manifold (which is also the pre catalyst converter, the FIRST CAT, which is inside the exhaust manifold). There is a donut gasket that falls off when the pipe comes off, save the doughnut gasket or put on a new one, but the pipe won't come off yet until you take the other end of the pipe loose. Go to the flanged connection between the 2nd Cat and the muffler, and find the 2 bolts and nuts that hold this connection together, spray them with WD-40 to help loosen them, they will likely be very tight and rusted. You need good wrenches and a lot of leverage to get them to loosen and come off. Once the bolts and nuts are off, the gasket comes out of the connection, mine was metal and could be reused. This section of exhaust pipe with the cat (about 5 feet long) will be loose and hanging by the robber support in the middle of the pipe. If you carefully slide the pipe hanger out of the rubber support, it will come off. Once off, you can look into the end of it and see what looks like a fine screen, with the cat material ahead of that. What I did was to take a round metal bar and a large hammer and beat the stuff out of the pipe. The stuff crumbled up easily and came out, resulting in a wide open pipe. Then I put the pipe back in, the reverse of the removal procedure. It is strange that you had the cracked head gasket problem, my daughters Altima seems to also have the same problem, it had some combustion gas leaking into the cooling system. I put some cooling system sealer in it, and it is fixed it for now. I don't really want to tear into the engine if I don't have to. It is most likely a leaking head gasket, but it could be a cracked head or cracked block. I read one report where a guy said his had a cracked block and had to get another engine, but that cost almost $4,000.00, too much for me. I am struggling right now just trying to get my daughter through college, and there is no money for major car repairs, so I am hoping to nurse it along with the cooling system sealer. I used the Bar's Leak Pelletized Cooling System Sealer and it seems to work well so far. If worst comes to worse, I will have to pull the head off to see where the problem lies, but small head gasket leaks are very hard to see, and I would have to send the head out and have it checked for trueness and any cracks. And I hate working on those kind of engines with all those timing chains and tensioners, the timing chains on the passenger side being hard to see and reach. |
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Replying to: brossr (Jun 07, 2009 4:55 pm) I have to tell you one more thing...I am one of those peple that battled, and I do mean BATTLED, with Nissan for some compensation, or at least some fair treatment of ANY kind...it took a year, but Nissan gave me a brand new 3.5 engine and cats (on them) and reimbursed me for ALL expenses related to these problems, including rental car costs...which came to just over $8,000. Here's the thing though....the new engine has under 8,000 miles on it and already the cats have come apart internally and failed causing the vehicle to bog heavily with a lack of power. The cats need to be replaced (AS USUAL)...but this will ultimately lead to the engine being ruined for a 2nd time. I cannot afford this - no one can. The only other thing I can do is modify the vehicle's exhaust to permanently remedy the problem, and then SELL it. I have to purchase after market exhaust headers, (different pipes altogether) with after market cats, (which would place the cats in a different position), and then buy the 02 cheater mechanism so that the service engine light doesn't come on. The car will probably perform better than it ever has, and I will be able to be rid of it forever. I cannot sell it in good conscience as is to someone, knowing they will inherit these issues.. I hope you are able to glean some good information from these replies. Good luck to you - don't let Nissan suck you and your wallet into their MONEY PIT. And lastly....Try not to place too much credence in the advice you get from your Nissan dealer. I went through 5 dif Nissan dealers, and they all fed me a lot of bullshit and took my money all while smiling and shaking my hand. The above advice came from my 6th and final Nissan (dealer)...a Nissan technician...and he was THE ONLY HONEST ONE of all of them that pulled me aside and laid it out for me just like this...with the alternative suggestion being to get rid of the car. Hope this helps!! Sincerely, Sara Keil
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Replying to: jd10013 (Dec 07, 2007 6:27 pm) |
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Replying to: keilse (Jun 08, 2009 3:28 pm)
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Replying to: brossr (Jun 08, 2009 7:07 pm) Sara |
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Replying to: keilse (Jun 06, 2009 11:01 pm) I didn't say all 3.5 SEs were problem free, I said VIRTUALLY meaning it doenst happen too often if at all. THe problems with the cats are far more common on 2.5 S engines then on 3.5 SEs but they still happen every so often |
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