Last post on May 17, 2010 at 7:02 PM
You are in the Pontiac GTO
What is this discussion about?
Pontiac GTO, Engine, Suspension, Coupe
#133 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [elias]
Feb 22, 2010 (10:52 am)
Elias, I don't know how I could be inappropriate by making a point that ANY manufacturers negligence, whether or not it results in injuries or death, has the potential to do so and is, none-the-less, knowingly wrongful. (please don't tell me they didn't know what they did when we all know this was a cheap way to get a classic nameplate back on the market) GM was aware of the tie-down transport issues afterward and very aware that they used Tonka toy parts (Opel) in a tank-weight car with no redesign modifications in the front end. (The GTO should have been the G-8)
It is easy to paint a typical scenario where these problems in the Pontiac GTO occur when they are "out of warranty" to make it appear that GTO owners should be expecting absurd incidences to occur (like having their tires shred and their strut towers collapse).
I don't know how any consumer could possibly defend the idea that the manufacturer doesn't own substantial liability, or at the very least, acknowledgment of a problem that usually shows itself within the 5 to 10k miles - way before any warranty is out.
I have read where many New GTO owners have had their cars repaired by dealers for the strut-tire rub issue without question although GM never officially acknowledged this as the widespread, inherent problem that it was in all these cars. Clearly, how dealers treated this problem was on a case by case basis.
At best, these repairs were done with the same crappy parts GM chose to put in the car that caused the problem in the first place so it wasn't really a fix at all.
I am as satisfied as I can be with the Pedders strut-rub package and everything was done by a certified Pedders installer. I won't know the actual effectiveness of the fix until I can see how my tires wear over a period of time. I would hope that I can get more than 10k out of a set of Eagle GTs.! (there is another thing I will not accept - getting short life out of a 50k miles tire)
I will tell you that even though this shop was authorized to do the Pedders installation and was advised to go spec by spec, the alignment was not on spec and there is still not a pencil thickness between the strut cup and the tire. Hey but what can I do about that? After it was done, I couldn't even get a call back about that concern.
I enjoy driving the GTO but honestly, my car was physically perfect and had 16k miles on it when I bought it. That is less than 3500 miles a year for a five year old car...and the tires were worn and cupped and the front suspension shot - struts were dry, rubber gone, bushings rotted. YOU tell me if that what you consider acceptable and reasonable when Pontiac dealers look at you like you are from Mars when YOU tell THEM ABOUT THE ISSUE, hoping they will at least be a little sympathetic, if not take some responsibility - but they don't.
So how much money do you put into a loosing proposition when all you bargained for was a great, low miles, performance car to have fun driving while doing regular oil changes?
My 04 is worth about 10k wholesale. My son rides a bike that cost more than that.
I would much rather have had some choice as to how to frivolously burn 2 grand into my car than poly-bushings and new struts ... headers..blower...something.
So i hope you see my point - and if you look at the date on my post you will see
that my reference to Prius problems was prior to this most recent. But it doesn't matter. What "has" caused and is "likely to" cause injury is just a matter of time.
Ride safe. Be happy.
#134 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [xtranaut]
Feb 22, 2010 (11:02 am)
I too am evaluating the same trade-off you evaluated -
whether to sink the /time$ into suspension work and getting to Pedders shop.
It would be easier to trade the vehicle for one that could be fully serviced locally at one of the 900 car dealerships/shops so conveniently close.
And the bargains/customer-cash on new GMs are amazing/tempting - you can't swing a cat without getting $8000 off a new GM vehicle.
The appropriateness of mentioning Toyota's fiasco in context of GTO strut/alignment & shredding tires is a subjective viewpoint over which we agree to differ.
So far nary a hang-nail or stubbed toe has resulted from GTOs having alignment issues after their long boat-ride and oddball front suspension.
Each person can be their own judge and compare nary a stubbed toe for GTO owners to 30+ fatalities for recent Toyotas.
As i said originally, inspecting tires is responsibility of owner, and I was a surprised shocked slacker when my GTO front tires inner edges were gone at 15k! The local ex-Pontiac dealer and the factory peoples treated me fine and fixed the issue, on Pontiac's dime.
I hope you enjoy any future miles with your GTO, xtranaut sir.
Keep the shiny side up!
#135 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [elias]
Mar 01, 2010 (5:30 pm)
elias, i did the pedders tire rub pack on my own car. any decent and experienced shade tree mechanic can do the work. then you get it aligned. if you are in south florida, let me know and perhaps we can work something out. otherwise its still worth paying a shop to do the work. rr70
#136 of 142 Re: follow up on rub kit [dmsdesign]
Mar 01, 2010 (5:37 pm)
i drive so little, that i can't say the braking feels a lot better. but, on the other hand, the steering and handling is much better. i would recommend the upgrade to anyone who has a gto.rr70
#137 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [roadrunner70]
Mar 02, 2010 (4:46 am)
1970roadrunner, thank you , I made the same choice last week and a full pedders kit is on order for installation by the authorized Pedders pro in NH, front, rear, muffler bearings, everything.
It will need new rear rotors too - they have excessive runout and under medium-braking the steering wiggles ridiculously via the loose radius/diameter/tangent rods.
#138 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [elias]
Mar 02, 2010 (9:32 am)
At what speeds does your steering wiggle? Is it like a very fine jitter? I have had four different road force balances, checked for bent rims, out of round in new tires, everything and still a fine shake in the wheel at higher speed around 7o to 80. This isn't associated with braking though Think rotors could be a problem causing this situation on my GOAT. The car has less than 20k on it
I do have a weird occurrence when I back out of the garage...on the first roll back, there is a noise like the car is rolling over hard ribbed rubber..it is definitely something you can feel but I can't tell where it is coming from. ???
If you don't mind, Elias, share a list of the things outside the strut rub kit that you ordered to put your ca in shape with Pedders...and how much extra did that run you?
#139 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [xtranaut]
Mar 02, 2010 (10:07 am)
As long as i'm not braking there is no wiggle - the car is absurdly smooth/stable at any speed including 70/80 and waaay beyond. That's one of the reasons I like it so much.
The steering wiggle is not speed-dependent - it seems dependent entirely on the amount of braking force and/or the relative amount of energy being disappated by the brakes.
Under hard braking, it doesn't happen.
Under light braking, it doesn't happen.
Only under medium-braking it happens. And it's not a small wiggle/shake - it gets progressively worse over time. Machining the brake rotors makes it go away for a while, but not for long.
When the rotors are wet, it's REALLY bad.
re the rollback out of garage thing, hmm... 2 thoughts. could it be the initial ABS-test/diagnostic occurring? Or could it be the typical flatspotting of the tires that you are feeling after car is parked for a long while?
Does it happen if you roll back in neutral as opposed to in-gear, in case you
can arrange that test safely?
Re my pedders order.
I've apparently never had any issues with strut-rub on my car - even when the alignment was wacky with negative-camber - we looked at the struts but no sign of rub. "a miss is as good as a mile". Possibly the absence of strut-rub is because I have the 17" wheels rather than 18" .
Also my goal with Pedders was not merely to stablize the front suspension - the kit for that runs about $428. I went for the "GTO street 2" kit with 20mm drop, listed for $1830.
btw, many GTO rear springs are worn out by now too. check your GTO ride height - it is probably sagging below factory spec - there should be an inch or two between top of tire and fender. (Possibly the rear springs sagged more quickly as another result of the long boat-ride from australia, with suspensions compressed the whole way. )
#140 of 142 Re: 99% of GTOs out of warranty -> time for aftermarket suspensions! [xtranaut]
Mar 02, 2010 (10:15 am)
also to answer your specific question, xtranaut. YES I think that rotor runout could be a possible contributor to the steering shake - should be easy for the shop to check that - also it's cheap to machine the rotors so runout is zero and/or within-spec.
what is the max number and max weight of the wheel weights the
dealer has on each wheel? if there are lots of big weights on there,
that is a bad sign about the wheel/tire combo - maybe not truly balancable.
a possible thing to try is to rotate the wheels front to back.
also i would bet a dollar that a set of 4 new tires on 4 new wheels will solve the problem. that's an expensive test though! :|
My last guess is DRIVESHAFT or U-joints, especially given the speed that you report the issue at. The resonant frequency of many cars can be triggered at those highway speeds, due to a driveshaft that is just barely out of balance.
I understand that past Z28s and current camaro SS have some "driveshaft vibe" issues.
However a car's resonant frequency is probably much lower than the frequency of the jitter in your steering wheel but maybe the jitter is a harmonic of the car's resonant frequency.
ps - there's a thing called a vibration analyzer that the dealer can mount
in the car and see full graphs & spectrum analysis of all vibrations in the car - analysis of those graphs may prove helpful.
#141 of 142 got pedders?
May 17, 2010 (6:54 pm)
just got pedders 2-cm street-drop full package installed. it fixed the wild-shake-under-medium-braking and WOW did it improve the handling/ride. THUMBS UP!
#142 of 142 Re: got pedders? [elias]
May 17, 2010 (7:02 pm)
Glad you are happy. It is amazing the transformation it does.