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Coupes & Convertibles Chevrolet Camaro Consequences of a new Pony Car war
51 messages, Last post on Mar 07, 2009 at 11:15 AM
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Replying to: john_324 (May 19, 2006 9:31 am) Depends on what counts as a "pony car". Stuff like the nonturbo Supras, 300ZXs, and SC300s of the '90s were the Japanese equivalent of V6 Camaros and Mustangs, and the G35 has no problem hanging with V8 Mustangs (and there is the oft-rumored RWD Tiburon waiting in the wings). Now, if a "pony car" has to have a crunky high-displacement, low output V6 or V8 in a massively-decontented live-axle rattletrap, then no. The V8 is a luxury/high-dollar engine in the rest of the world (even Australia; buying a V8 Holden is like buying a Corvette here) and they are designed for luxury/high-dollar cars. Jamming big cubes into a crapmobile is a uniquely American innovation.
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There was a big market for four-place coupes during the heyday of the Pony car in the late 60s and early 70s but they weren't popular enough to keep three competing Pony cars in the market place. My bet is that history will repeat itself and rising gas prices, insurance costs and other factors will reduce the demand so that the GM and Chrysler entries will be withdrawn and the Mustang alone will survive. I freely admit to bias on that last point, I owned a Mustang 5-liter convertible for 12 years. |
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Replying to: bumpy (May 19, 2006 9:55 am) The big difference between those cars and pony cars is price. Pony cars have to offer decent performance at a bargain price...those cars offer good peformance, but not at pony car prices. But I take your point about V8s in the rest of the world...it's very true that they're in large part a North American specialty. But could that be solved by my fictional Toyota Kirin having a V8 option here in the U.S., but sold in the rest of the world with a 6 cyl as the big engine (the "Kirin ActiveSport"). Kinda like how the Ford Capri was Europe's Mustang, but with a V6 instead of a V8. An attendant question seems to be: is RWD really making a comeback, or is it just a U.S.-centric nostalgia thing? "My bet is that history will repeat itself and rising gas prices, insurance costs and other factors will reduce the demand so that the GM and Chrysler entries will be withdrawn and the Mustang alone will survive." I've wondered for a few years now if we're about to see a "Mustang III" appear in the not-too-distant future...little, somewhat fuel efficient, and destined to be popular at the time, but hated years later. 
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on it's own "pony car" version. I read this in a car mag a few months back and I believe they referred to it as a Supra but do check me on that. Larger body than most sporty Japanese models and large engine to boot. It is coming next year if memory serves me, which, unfortunately it doesn't often enough. I would encourage those that are interested to research this one some more because Toyota is hard at work on a "pony car" of it's own to compete with the Mustang and Camaro. As far as the Camaro is concerned it's not a matter of if they're going to build it it's a matter of when. That car, whether you like it or not, is what GM and Chevy need right now to stay afloat. Granted it's not everything they need but it's a portion, a hefty one at that, of what GM needs to keep going right now. Watch and you will read thousands of references to the new world order Camaro as the savior of GM or the one that brought GM back. That is if it can help save GM in the real world. That makes it sort of a suspense story, then, eh? As far as it's design goes I think Chevy has come up with a winner with the Camaro, if one were just looking at the new body design. If I were in the market for a Stang or Camaro-type rig, though, I would go for another rig that we don't yet know will be built...the new world order Dodge Challenger. Now that car blows away the new Charger, IMO, and Dodge designers has given it a retro look that incorporates sleek modern lines yet retains the muscular bombardment that was the Challenger of old. I think Dodge will score large with the new Challenger and, yes, I think Dodge will build it.
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Replying to: iluvmysephia1 (May 19, 2006 11:24 am) So what you're saying is that if GM can manage to get just one mass-produced, mid-end car perfect, that might be what it takes to restore confidence in the company and its abilities? Hmmm...interesting idea, and a "bold move" (with apologies to Ford...) to be sure. I'd love it if GM actually pulls it off. |
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Replying to: andys120 (May 19, 2006 9:54 am)  Maybe even the original Fairlady Z (240Z) Though it wasn't advertised as a "Pony" in the American sense, the Z used the basic body formula of long hood-short deck, light weight, decent power/weight ratio. And it had a decent suspension. But back on topic. I don't think the Camaro is going to come. With GM's financials, SEC probe, the UAW and Delphi situation, the on again/off again of the platform and Lutz's comments on break even point (one article quoted 100K, another 130 - 150K) are there really that many shoppers out there? As stated before, many talked about the gen-4 F-body, but many bought them. And with a high break even point, that they couldn't meet with the last model, are they going to meet it with the new one? I really don't see it happening. It would be nice, but I don't know. As long as they don't rebadge some Daewoo or something... 
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new Camaro but it's a nice start. I am going on input from a GM exec that they are definitely going to build the new Camaro. It got out to the press, so I don't think he would say it if he didn't think it would eventually come to be. I just think GM needs a sporty rig to produce that is successful on a massive scale. One that they could mass-produce, get it right from the start and sell truckloads of. No, it won't be enough to lift them out of the dumpster entirely but it's a good start. The Pontiac Solstice is a GM car that is selling well that is sporty, new and different. From what I read they can barely keep up with demand on this car, but Pontiac isn't building them at a very fast pace, so take that one however you want. I think the Camaro will come but Chevy is going to need to improve their small car offerings and they still need a valid body design department to compete with Camry and Accord, IMO. What lame midsize offerings from GM. The Malibu and Impala are weak vehicles. |
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Replying to: jae5 (May 19, 2006 2:42 pm) Maybe even the original Fairlady Z (240Z) Though it wasn't advertised as a "Pony" in the American sense, the Z used the basic body formula of long hood-short deck, light weight, decent power/weight ratio. And it had a decent suspension. RX-7s and 240Zs are sports cars which are quite a bit different than pony cars, they're smaller, lighter and generally only have two seats. The original Mustang concept car (ca. 1962) was a tiny two-seater with a mid-engine. link When Ford chose to build a larger, heavier Mustang the reaction from the sports car set was disappointment if not outrage. It wasn't til the introduction of the GT-350 that the sports car crowd fully accepted the Mustang. The short deck/long hood look was a deliberate imitation of the portions of the front engined roadsters of the era.
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Replying to: andys120 (May 21, 2006 11:30 am) American sports cars have traditionally had big engines, Japanese ones have emphasized handling, and Europe had two philosophies: lightweight roadsters (most of which have died) and luxury sports cars. I guess Toyota or Nissan could make an American-style pony or muscle car now that they've settled in here so well, but I don't think many people would buy one. Almost all the allure of the Mustang and Camaro is in their history - if they had been invented in 2005 I don't think they'd be nearly as popular as they are. |
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Replying to: andys120 (May 21, 2006 11:30 am) Know the difference between a pony, sports, sporty, muscle car. My mention of the Fairlady and RX-7 was that if considering an RX-8, my take is that an -7 and the Fairlady iterations were closer to the "formula". Now a Skyliner, hmmm, that's a sticky one. And as you know, many times the lines get blurred, especially between the pony and muscle cars - a little pet-peeve of mine. There wasn't too much of a market for the mid-engined two-seater - remember why the T-bird went to four seats? Iacocca, Fry and the other guys really hit the nail on the head with the Mustang - very, very good market research and execution. It still cracks me up when people don't realize it was a Falcon, a gussied up one, but still a Falcon.
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