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Toyota Avalon Limited vs. Lexus ES 350 Comparison

239 messages,  Last post on May 16, 2013 at 5:46 AM

You are in the Lexus ES Forum.

What is this discussion about? Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES 350

Messages Page 18 of 24

#169 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz] by tjc78

Sep 22, 2008 (1:29 pm)

Replying to: praz (Sep 22, 2008 11:38 am)
FWIW is the TL is one of the best handling FWD cars on the road (especially in "Type S" form.
 
I know what you are saying about the ES only sharing 20% of parts with the Camry, sure the body panels, interior and controls are different, however those things do little about how the vehicle drives. The ES and Camry are no different than say a Cadillac DTS/Lucerne or Town Car/Grand Marquis.

#170 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz] by captain2

Sep 22, 2008 (1:42 pm)

Replying to: praz (Sep 22, 2008 11:38 am)
generally agree with your contention that any car with with 60% (or more) of its weight over the front (driven) wheels cannot be a sports sedan BUT I really don't think that you'll find too many TL owners that don't at least think it is one. Honda has a done a remarkable job in that particular car engineering out some of the nasty behavior that comes with a lot of HP and FWD.
Things like Camry XLEs vs ESs, however, 6 of one half dozen of the other - except, of course for that sometimes quite important badge. The Avalon? Simply a larger - and different - car.

#171 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz] by captain2

Sep 22, 2008 (2:24 pm)

Replying to: praz (Sep 22, 2008 6:27 am)
the median age for the Avalon buyer used to be 63 before the 05 MY. ANY larger 4 door sedan will necessarily appeal to an older demographic (even the ES) for no other reason than how practical they all tend to be relative to some of those swoopy smaller (and often cheaper) sedans that tend to do better with the younger folks. The younger buyer I would contend is generally more concerned with a 'badge' compared to that older guy that's been around long enough not to care anymore about what others might think. The demographic for the ES buyer is younger - as it logically should be.
 
However true it may be that the Avalon still appeals to an older buyer it really is because of its size (as you note) - and styling to some degree - because it certainly has nothing to do with the 6 sec. 0-60s it is capable of - or FTM how 'large' that buyer might be!

#173 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [captain2] by amauhry

Sep 23, 2008 (8:41 am)

Replying to: captain2 (Sep 22, 2008 1:16 pm)
captain2,
 
Since you know your stuff, I’m gonna get technical: I’m fully aware that the tendency to knock is higher when spark advance is increased – and vice versa. The fact is, you can lower/increase an engine’s octane requirement by just playing with the ignition timing.
 
The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic (including the dealer) can effectively and efficiently implement even the change you explained (yes, it only requires a bit of know-how and a piece of software); but I think that only the engine designer can tell the computer (the ECM and any related ECU) when the perfect balance between the flame front, power delivery by the pistons and end gases have been achieved. And I said this because if your flame front starts earlier then your end gases (product of combustion) will also start to form earlier within the cylinders, and if you don’t know what you are doing, you gonna end up having incipient knock all over the place before the pistons fully deliver all their potential energy to the crankshaft. Sure, just about anyone with the right tool can do this; what I’m questioning is how efficient the balance can be achieved.
 
Yes, using premium will give you a bit more of a push using the approach you explained. Originally I was thinking of a different approach. But I will clarify this NOT to you since, as I said it earlier, I’m sure you know your stuff (and I appreciate you made me look at a different direction regarding this issue): many folks believe premium gasoline is “better” than non-premium, and because it is better, the engine ought to give you more power. Not so. Octane 87 gasoline delivers the same amount of energy per unit volume as octane 93 does. In the case of the 2GR-FE, is the procedure explained above which I think makes the difference and not the “premium” in the gasoline.
 
Amaury
’08 Limited

#174 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [amauhry] by captain2

Sep 24, 2008 (7:18 am)

Replying to: amauhry (Sep 23, 2008 8:41 am)
The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic
no actually this is your original statement obviously with which I have the issue - it can be (and often is) for that 'do-it-yourselfer' to easily and sometimes quite inexpensively get even more than just a few extra HP out of an engine - even one as sophisticated as the 2GR. Ever hear of K&N Air filters? Something like ECU chips are also commonly replaced yielding sometimes very large HP gains although usually at the expense of mfgr. warranties. The point was that is quite easy to get a few extra HP out of almost any engine and that it doesn't necessarily require 'serious' engine modifications as you suggest. The whole explanantion that I went into about the valve and spark timing adjustments that the 2GR can and does make in response to fuel octane ( as well as other things) was only to substantiate that the Avalon engine at 268hp and the ES engine at 272 are indeed exactly the same and it is simply a rating difference because of the fuel octane recommendations.
In truth it all has to do with marketing - apparently Toyota believes (probably correctly) that the buyer of a Toyota labelled product is more likely to be concerned with the $.40/gallon fuel premium than the Lexus buyer. I, for one, would likely never buy the ES (over the Camry XLE) and/or I would certainly run 87 octane in both if I did - the 4hp is plainly not enough of a difference to justify an extra $7.00 a tank IMO. Not that the ES doesn't offer something extra for the money or that it isn't a very fine automobile just like the Camry and Avalon - it's just not worth it TO ME!

#175 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [captain2] by praz

Sep 24, 2008 (10:34 am)

Replying to: captain2 (Sep 24, 2008 7:18 am)
As mentioned before, one should not compare ES to Camry or Avalon. That said, a person might cross shop between Camry, Avalon and ES depending on his needs, affordability, taste and above all value for the money in his perspective. I still think that most of them considering Camry will not cross shop with ES as it is a big jump from family to luxury segment. The approximate price between Camry XLE/Avalon Limited/ES equally equipped is $33,000/$38,000/$43,000 after 5 years (w/o maintenance costs) while considering $1,000 below invoice for Toyota and at invoice for ES, better financing rate on Toyota than Lexus. The numbers are just approximations with zero down and OTD price with 8% sales tax and TTL. My 2 cents, if you are planning to keep the vehicle for 10 years, don't intend to put lot of miles and can afford to pay premium, than go for Lexus. Luxury, dealer/service experience and resale value is amongst the best in the industry.
I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.

#176 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [praz] by captain2

Sep 24, 2008 (1:00 pm)

Replying to: praz (Sep 24, 2008 10:34 am)
the only difference I have with this is that it is logical to compare the ES with the Camry XLE - despite differences in badge perception, dealer service, and even fit and finish - there is still very little from the bling dept. that can't be had with the cheaper Camry. And it remains true that they are identical in size and certainly mechanically. It is the physically larger Avalon that makes the suspect comparison.
It is kinda like tjc78 mentioned, if you can accept a DTS buyer shopping the Lucerne, or the Town Car buyer shopping the Marquis why is that really any different than what we have here?

#177 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [praz] by captain2

Sep 24, 2008 (1:35 pm)

Replying to: praz (Sep 24, 2008 10:34 am)
I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.
 
not only that but Toyota planned it that way. Back in 2004 Toyota was 'saddled' with a perfectly good group of V6s (despite 'sludging') that were short about 50hp. So they spent literally hundreds of millions to develop the 2GR series actually from the existing 4 liter truck engine and put it first in the 05 Avalon. Turned out to be a helluva good decision, an engine easily good enough for a multitude of uses, plenty good enough to be fitted in any Lexus, and still save the companies a bunch of money. I would even go one step further and include the FSE variant that's in the IS and GS, direct injection while it may make for 40 or 50 more HP does not in itself change what the 2GR is - simply one of THE best V6 engines ever made!.

#178 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [captain2] by praz

Sep 24, 2008 (1:52 pm)

Replying to: captain2 (Sep 24, 2008 1:00 pm)
tjc78 was talking about driving dynamics and both cars are pretty close, otherwise they are different. They might share the same engine, transmission and wheelbase which are most important part of the car but other than that, they don't share anything. If some or most of them are happy that they bought cheaper ES or ES w/4 cylinder than they are SOMETHING.
Camry sells the best in it's class so they want to carry the same size, engine and transmission to ES to reduce cost and be competitive. This will also help to keep the maintenance costs low. I would suggest you or any other person who strongly feel that Camry and ES are same to spend a day with both the cars back to back. I have come across more posts about these two cars than Accord/TL, Toureg/Q7/Cayenne, MDX/Pilot, Highlander/RX, etc. and it might be because they looked almost the same until 2007 model year.

Messages Page 18 of 24

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