Last post on May 16, 2013 at 5:46 AM
You are in the Lexus ES
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES 350
#166 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz]
Sep 22, 2008 (10:52 am)
The engine is the same as are some of the suspension components and the basic design of the frame. EVERYTHING else is unique to the two cars.
Wait a sec here.... everything you mentioned is everything that ties into the driving dynamics of the car. I have driven them both and own an '06 Avalon, so I think I am informed here. Just talking about driving and handling the ES and Camry are essentially the same. Everything else you mention is purely the reason why people will spend (including even me) the extra money over Camry. However, at the end of the day the ES and Camry (Avalon too) are very much related.
If ES is exactly same as Camry, than Lexus wouldn't be selling more cars than TL and G35 combined
NO doubt the ES sells well because it is entry level luxury with a smooth quiet ride. Exactly what most people in this segment are looking for. The TL and G are much more sporty than the ES will ever be. The ES is no sport sedan. Keep in mind here I never said Lexus wasn't doing things right, however, the Toyotas they are based on aren't too bad either
#167 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [tjc78]
Sep 22, 2008 (11:38 am)
TL(based on Accord) is a sporty looking car but not a sport sedan as it is a FWD car. G35 is a sport sedan as well as 3-series and C-class as they are based on RWD. ES, Camry and Avalon may be related but not twins or triplets. They are not the SAME and one cannot say that as they share only approx 20% of components. If one cannot afford to buy ES and say that I have bought a ES without the price tag, than I have no words for him. Having said that, all 3 cars are good in their respective segments and hence are sales leader but each car caters to different people hence cannot be compared. If one wants to compare Camry than do that with Altima, Malibu, Accord, Sonata, Mazda 6, Passat 2.0, etc but definitely not the ES or Avalon.
#168 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [amauhry]
Sep 22, 2008 (1:16 pm)
That engine has to undergo serious mods in order to increase the horsepower output even by a few digets
Huh? Like what? The 2 GR is one of the most sophisticated, efficient, and flexible engines currently available. the 2GR (as well as many other engines) can easily compensate for fuel octane differences thru predetonation detection and the corrresponding timing changes necessary to avoid that predetonation. When pre detonation is detected the spark timing is simply retarded (delayed) thereby costing some HP and likewise the timing can be advanced when no predetonation is detected thereby creating a bit more power. Simple really and certainly not requiring 'serious mods', only some technology and a computer program to apply it.
Having run both premium and regular in my Avalon, I can tell you that there are negligible power and FE differences using premium vs. regular. My 05 Avalon actually was rated at 280 hp reflecting the use of not only premium but also less some engine driven accessories (like a power steering pump). It was rerated to the 268 effective in 06 and in compliance to SAE testing standards changes and with no engine changes whatsoever. Many mfgrs. were effected (Honda, for example) Since the 'FS' (non direct injected) 2GR engine variant is identical in all respects in the Avalon, the Camry and the ES it also follows that the Avalon engine puts out 272 hp using premium just like the ES does, or for that matter that the ES puts out 268hp on regular. It's no big deal, but I believe any statement that there is any real differences in the engines, power- wise or otherwise, is plainly wrong.
#169 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz]
Sep 22, 2008 (1:29 pm)
FWIW is the TL is one of the best handling FWD cars on the road (especially in "Type S" form.
I know what you are saying about the ES only sharing 20% of parts with the Camry, sure the body panels, interior and controls are different, however those things do little about how the vehicle drives. The ES and Camry are no different than say a Cadillac DTS/Lucerne or Town Car/Grand Marquis.
#170 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz]
Sep 22, 2008 (1:42 pm)
generally agree with your contention that any car with with 60% (or more) of its weight over the front (driven) wheels cannot be a sports sedan BUT I really don't think that you'll find too many TL owners that don't at least think it is one. Honda has a done a remarkable job in that particular car engineering out some of the nasty behavior that comes with a lot of HP and FWD.
Things like Camry XLEs vs ESs, however, 6 of one half dozen of the other - except, of course for that sometimes quite important badge. The Avalon? Simply a larger - and different - car.
#171 of 239 Re: Preaching to the converted [praz]
Sep 22, 2008 (2:24 pm)
the median age for the Avalon buyer used to be 63 before the 05 MY. ANY larger 4 door sedan will necessarily appeal to an older demographic (even the ES) for no other reason than how practical they all tend to be relative to some of those swoopy smaller (and often cheaper) sedans that tend to do better with the younger folks. The younger buyer I would contend is generally more concerned with a 'badge' compared to that older guy that's been around long enough not to care anymore about what others might think. The demographic for the ES buyer is younger - as it logically should be.
However true it may be that the Avalon still appeals to an older buyer it really is because of its size (as you note) - and styling to some degree - because it certainly has nothing to do with the 6 sec. 0-60s it is capable of - or FTM how 'large' that buyer might be!
#173 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [captain2]
Sep 23, 2008 (8:41 am)
Since you know your stuff, I’m gonna get technical: I’m fully aware that the tendency to knock is higher when spark advance is increased – and vice versa. The fact is, you can lower/increase an engine’s octane requirement by just playing with the ignition timing.
The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic (including the dealer) can effectively and efficiently implement even the change you explained (yes, it only requires a bit of know-how and a piece of software); but I think that only the engine designer can tell the computer (the ECM and any related ECU) when the perfect balance between the flame front, power delivery by the pistons and end gases have been achieved. And I said this because if your flame front starts earlier then your end gases (product of combustion) will also start to form earlier within the cylinders, and if you don’t know what you are doing, you gonna end up having incipient knock all over the place before the pistons fully deliver all their potential energy to the crankshaft. Sure, just about anyone with the right tool can do this; what I’m questioning is how efficient the balance can be achieved.
Yes, using premium will give you a bit more of a push using the approach you explained. Originally I was thinking of a different approach. But I will clarify this NOT to you since, as I said it earlier, I’m sure you know your stuff (and I appreciate you made me look at a different direction regarding this issue): many folks believe premium gasoline is “better” than non-premium, and because it is better, the engine ought to give you more power. Not so. Octane 87 gasoline delivers the same amount of energy per unit volume as octane 93 does. In the case of the 2GR-FE, is the procedure explained above which I think makes the difference and not the “premium” in the gasoline.
#174 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [amauhry]
Sep 24, 2008 (7:18 am)
The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic
no actually this is your original statement obviously with which I have the issue - it can be (and often is) for that 'do-it-yourselfer' to easily and sometimes quite inexpensively get even more than just a few extra HP out of an engine - even one as sophisticated as the 2GR. Ever hear of K&N Air filters? Something like ECU chips are also commonly replaced yielding sometimes very large HP gains although usually at the expense of mfgr. warranties. The point was that is quite easy to get a few extra HP out of almost any engine and that it doesn't necessarily require 'serious' engine modifications as you suggest. The whole explanantion that I went into about the valve and spark timing adjustments that the 2GR can and does make in response to fuel octane ( as well as other things) was only to substantiate that the Avalon engine at 268hp and the ES engine at 272 are indeed exactly the same and it is simply a rating difference because of the fuel octane recommendations.
In truth it all has to do with marketing - apparently Toyota believes (probably correctly) that the buyer of a Toyota labelled product is more likely to be concerned with the $.40/gallon fuel premium than the Lexus buyer. I, for one, would likely never buy the ES (over the Camry XLE) and/or I would certainly run 87 octane in both if I did - the 4hp is plainly not enough of a difference to justify an extra $7.00 a tank IMO. Not that the ES doesn't offer something extra for the money or that it isn't a very fine automobile just like the Camry and Avalon - it's just not worth it TO ME!
#175 of 239 Re: Premium Fuel Lexus Doublespeak [captain2]
Sep 24, 2008 (10:34 am)
As mentioned before, one should not compare ES to Camry or Avalon. That said, a person might cross shop between Camry, Avalon and ES depending on his needs, affordability, taste and above all value for the money in his perspective. I still think that most of them considering Camry will not cross shop with ES as it is a big jump from family to luxury segment. The approximate price between Camry XLE/Avalon Limited/ES equally equipped is $33,000/$38,000/$43,000 after 5 years (w/o maintenance costs) while considering $1,000 below invoice for Toyota and at invoice for ES, better financing rate on Toyota than Lexus. The numbers are just approximations with zero down and OTD price with 8% sales tax and TTL. My 2 cents, if you are planning to keep the vehicle for 10 years, don't intend to put lot of miles and can afford to pay premium, than go for Lexus. Luxury, dealer/service experience and resale value is amongst the best in the industry.
I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.