Last post on Nov 28, 2012 at 8:24 PM
You are in the Dodge Sprinter
What is this discussion about?
Dodge Sprinter, Dodge Sprinter Cargo, Van
Share your actual mileage numbers and questions with other Sprinter owners.
#65 of 84 Re: Fuel cost saving of diesel vs. gasoline [jim314]
Feb 02, 2007 (8:02 am)
within about $3K-$5K Sometimes tighter... On passenger vans. Mine was certainly nearly even-steven.
The thing is as you point out with the high roof is that GM and Ford CAN'T match it... Except for aftermarket or co-production deals (and a bit of extra expense, I don't have a figure on that) you can't get a domestic high-roof, and then there is NO door that opens top-to-bottom full heighth on the whole vehicle.
Of course, so far the Sprinter doesn't have alot of power for towing. My dad has the Ford 1ton PowerStroke Diesel van (a $45K+ vehicle), it gets close to the mileage I get (19 MPG for the Ford, I get 20-21 in my Sprinter). He also can tow an Airstream 26 footer easily (about 8,000 Lb.)
My Sprinter can tow 5,000 Lb., and I have heard good things about them towing except that your acceleration will be limited (I don't expect to hurry when I tow anyway).
As the 2007 model gets closer to the USA market, I expect the 2006's (if available on the dealer lots) to get a price drop (not much, but some). The extra horsepower and updated van are a strong draw to some, but the existing vehicle is strong enough for us and the space-to-MPG ratio is HUGEly in our favor as it is.
We haul family, friends, church folks, co-workers on lunch outings, etc. and most all are impressed (and I have the shorter version of the two).
2004 Arctic White MWB 2500 HC Dodge Sprinter converted back to Mercedes: badges/hubcaps/decals/grill(white)
#66 of 84 Densities of gasoline and diesel fuel [jim314]
Feb 03, 2007 (5:44 pm)
"The density of [petroleum] diesel is about 850 grams per liter [18% greater than gasoline] whereas gasoline has a density of about 720 g/l, about 15% less. When burnt, diesel typically releases about 40.9 megajoules (MJ) per liter, whereas gasoline releases 34.8 MJ/L, about 15% less. Diesel is generally simpler to refine than gasoline and often costs less (although price fluctuations sometimes mean that the inverse is true; for example, the cost of diesel traditionally rises during colder months as demand for heating oil, which is refined much the same way, rises). Also, due to its high level of pollutants, diesel fuel must undergo additional filtration which contributes to a sometimes higher cost.
"Diesel powered cars generally have about a 40% better fuel economy than equivalent gasoline engines and produce only about 69% of the greenhouse gases. This greater fuel economy is due to the higher per-liter energy content of diesel fuel and also to the intrinsic efficiency of the diesel engine. While diesel's 15% higher volumetric energy density results in 15% higher greenhouse gas emissions per liter compared to gasoline, the 40% better fuel economy achieved by modern diesel-engined automobiles offsets the higher-per-liter emissions of greenhouse gases, resulting in significantly lower carbon dioxide emissions per kilometer."
So you'd multiply the gasoline mpg by 1.18 to correct for the lower density of gasoline compared to diesel fuel. So the 15 mpg of a gasoline engine should be corrected to 15(1.18) = 17.6 mpg for comparison to an equivalent weight of diesel fuel.
#68 of 84 Re: Densities of gasoline and diesel fuel [jim314]
Feb 04, 2007 (7:08 am)
"Diesel powered cars generally have about a 40% better fuel economy than equivalent gasoline engines and produce only about 69% of the greenhouse gases....
Jim, I realize your information is probably accurate according to some study somewhere. I'm just having trouble with it. Mostly from personal experience and observation.
The part I don't understand is the "equivalent".
Just how do we compare and make equivalent the gas and the diesel engines. Do we compare torque, horsepower, or displacement?
Diesels generally will produce more torque and less horse power than an "Equal Size", displacement, gas engine. Therefore diesels of equal displacement will do more "work".
However their MPG will be similar to the same displacement gas engine unless working really hard.
Just reading the "Real World Mileage" over on the Dodge Ram forum, the Diesels are getting a little better than the gas, but not 40%. I know that is not a fair comparison as they are comparing trucks that "WORK" with heavier loads and weigh more.
My 360 CI Ram was considerably "quicker" than a friends Cummings Turbo Diesel. Mine was a 98 and his a year or two newer. His was rated to tow considerably more. I averaged a shade over 14 daily driving and 18 road. He said he was getting about 2 better on both. Still not 40%.
It does get confusing to me!
#69 of 84 Re: Densities of gasoline and diesel fuel [kipk]
Feb 04, 2007 (10:16 am)
I agree that there is a problem with the meaning of equivalent. We should be comparing gas and diesel engines of the same horsepower, but we don't.
Torque output can be changed by gearing, power output is proportional to the product of the torque and the rpms. A diesel engine will have a lower max power rating than a gasser of the same max torque because the diesel cannot reach the same max rpms. But most diesels do get more power out of the same weight of fuel than a gasoline engine. You can find explanations of why this is so, usually cited is that air pumping resistance in the gasser is higher because gassers are "throttled" whereas diesels have no throttle restricting air flow into the cylinders; and higher thermodynamic efficiency of the diesel due to its higher compression ratio.
But the fact is that most people hardly ever run their engines in passenger cars at high rpms and peak power. They drive at rpms around the torque maximum because this is fuel efficient and doesn't give the impression that the engine is straining. Under these conditions a diesel and a gasser with the same max torque rating will accelerate the car about the same. The fact that the diesel will have a much lower max hp rating than the gasser will not be evident unless you are trying to pass another vehicle on an uphill 2-lane road, or are testing 0-60mph performance.
I think that in the past people who got diesels in passenger cars were looking for fuel efficiency and would accept lower hp engines which gave inferior acceleration that the gassers offered in that car.
Here is a quote from an automotive engineer: ". . . look at the BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) of each engine. For example, a Cummins ISB (the Dodge Pickup engine) is rated at 0.34 lbs/hp/hr. As a comparison, the Detroit Diesel Series 60 is rated at 0.38 lbs/hp/hr and most gasoline engines are in the .48-.52lbs/hp/hr class. (Those figures are for peak torque, which is generally the most fuel efficient point.)"
But in my opinion the diesel engine in pick-up trucks do not appeal to the buyer as much on the basis of fuel efficiency, but rather high torque, fairly high horsepower (not much less than the gasoline engines offered in that truck), longevity, durability, diesel image. So the engines in diesel trucks are slower 0-60mph than gassers but not a lot slower.
The diesel will be a much more expensive engine which can better tolerate continuous operation at a higher percent of max power output than the gasoline engines offered in that truck. Hence it will probably have a more durable transmission and a higher towing rating.
#70 of 84 Re: Densities of gasoline and diesel fuel [kipk]
Feb 05, 2007 (3:43 pm)
The large 2-stroke marine diesel is the most efficient reciprocating engine with BSFC of 0.28 lb/bhp-hr. Also diesels are now being produced for general aviation use. At least some of these are 2-stroke which would have the advantage that the power to weight ratio would be higher than a four stroke.
Feb 06, 2007 (4:57 pm)
Well it got down to -12. I put a light under the battery to keep it warm. And would not start . But had plenty of cranking power. Any suggestions on a fuel additive. Thanks, Tom
#72 of 84 Re: Fuel additive [2000_valk]
Feb 07, 2007 (6:35 am)
In our ares most folks with Diesel P/Us plug in the engine block heaters if air temp gets into the teens.
Don't know what they do if away from an electrical outlet!
#73 of 84 Re: Fuel cost saving of diesel vs. gasoline [kenbaker]
Feb 07, 2007 (1:09 pm)
Would you mind sharing where or how it was that you got your Sprinter at a $7k discount? I'm looking to buy one now, and they're selling for a premium.
#74 of 84 Re: Fuel cost saving of diesel vs. gasoline [kmarder]
Feb 08, 2007 (11:30 am)
Oklahoma... got a dealer van (passenger, 624 miles) that was in stock on spec. Bought 2004 model in 2005.
The Sprinter has not caught on here yet for passenger use. I see alot for businesses, especially delivery, medical, Cleaning companies, etc. Not very many passenger vans though.
Special order is just not going to get you a discount anywhere that I know of. We also don't see them going for a premium here either. That may change with 2007 models.
I was assured by the dealer that I could have taken mine up North or to Florida and have made a profit on it... I am pretty sure he was right.
Apples for apples to Ford/GMC it is not really higher... 3/4 ton, diesel, high roof, 10 passenger, long oil change intervals, MPG, etc. If you find all of these in a FORD I know it will cost MORE than the Sprinter. My dad has a FORD that matches all but the high roof and even that van was about $45K list ($36K used with about 20K miles on it). My Sprinter LISTED for $37K+ and I paid $30K (plus a 500 dollar transport fee).
Any idea how much it costs to add aftermarket high-roof to a FORD or GMC van?
Oh yeah, the local Mercedes Owners Club wants me to join... I've put it back in Mercedes trim as it was supposed to be born and it is a bit of a novelty to them.