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Vans & Minivans Dodge Sprinter Dodge Sprinter Gas Mileage
76 messages, Last post on Nov 10, 2007 at 9:03 AM
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So in the previous post (#58) I calculated the original est $9000 in purchase price savings of the gasoline engine would accrue $5000 in interest over 9 years, but to compare you would have to assume that the fuel cost savings of a diesel would be saved and put at interest each month or year. Over 9 years this would grow to some amount which could be calculated, and which would be in the diesel's favor. That is, one would subtract this amount from the $14,000 advantage for the gasoline engine to get a net monetary gain for the gasoline engine.
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Replying to: jim314 (Feb 01, 2007 6:37 am) Figured on a yearly basis of 11,111 miles driven, the diesel would save $488 a year. The $9000 would grow $450 the first year. At 22,000 miles a year the diesel would save $976 and the $9000 would still have only grown the $450. If that $976 were saved in a 5% instrument and the diesel maintenance cost are not overwhelming, the diesel is a winner. As stated earlier, the diesel needs lots of mileage to be worthwhile. Average homeowner that wants a van for trips to Home Depot or occasional camping or towing would probably be better off with the 15 mpg V8. Me thinks. Maybe Dodge will slip a V8 into it while Mercedes is not looking!  Kip |
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Replying to: kipk (Feb 01, 2007 7:05 am) |
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Replying to: kipk (Feb 01, 2007 7:05 am) What you are looking for is a MARR (minimum accetable Rate of Return) for your investment, and time-value of money is always a part of that equation. More money saved earlier is better... and money saved over time is less so. Since I got my Sprinter at a $7000 (+/- $500) discount, I don't have a problem getting my investment back... Money saved on maintenance, extended service intervals (if efective), and reduced shop down-time are more intangible in nature when compared to MPG and initial cost. At least in the passenger model, I don't see as big a difference in the Sprinter compared to a GM or Ford product for price on a 3/4 ton or 1 ton model basis. That is, of course, if you don't mind (or, like me, prefer) Rubber Mat flooring and simple/sturdy (Sprinter) instead of carpeted and plush (which most GM and Ford vans will be). My last Astro/Safari listed for nearly what I spent on my Sprinter and the Sprinter still gets better mileage than the Safari mini Van! KenB 
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Replying to: kenbaker (Feb 01, 2007 3:08 pm) Personally, I much prefer the rubber mat flooring because it can be cleaned extremely well. And the greater inside height would be a huge plus for me. Are you saying that the Sprinter deals and the Chevy Express deals are much closer than $9000. How close would you say? Estimate if you don't know for sure.
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Replying to: jim314 (Feb 01, 2007 3:55 pm) The thing is as you point out with the high roof is that GM and Ford CAN'T match it... Except for aftermarket or co-production deals (and a bit of extra expense, I don't have a figure on that) you can't get a domestic high-roof, and then there is NO door that opens top-to-bottom full heighth on the whole vehicle. Of course, so far the Sprinter doesn't have alot of power for towing. My dad has the Ford 1ton PowerStroke Diesel van (a $45K+ vehicle), it gets close to the mileage I get (19 MPG for the Ford, I get 20-21 in my Sprinter). He also can tow an Airstream 26 footer easily (about 8,000 Lb.) My Sprinter can tow 5,000 Lb., and I have heard good things about them towing except that your acceleration will be limited (I don't expect to hurry when I tow anyway). As the 2007 model gets closer to the USA market, I expect the 2006's (if available on the dealer lots) to get a price drop (not much, but some). The extra horsepower and updated van are a strong draw to some, but the existing vehicle is strong enough for us and the space-to-MPG ratio is HUGEly in our favor as it is. We haul family, friends, church folks, co-workers on lunch outings, etc. and most all are impressed (and I have the shorter version of the two). KenB 2004 Arctic White MWB 2500 HC Dodge Sprinter converted back to Mercedes: badges/hubcaps/decals/grill(white) |
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Replying to: jim314 (Jan 31, 2007 8:18 am) "The density of [petroleum] diesel is about 850 grams per liter [18% greater than gasoline] whereas gasoline has a density of about 720 g/l, about 15% less. When burnt, diesel typically releases about 40.9 megajoules (MJ) per liter, whereas gasoline releases 34.8 MJ/L, about 15% less. Diesel is generally simpler to refine than gasoline and often costs less (although price fluctuations sometimes mean that the inverse is true; for example, the cost of diesel traditionally rises during colder months as demand for heating oil, which is refined much the same way, rises). Also, due to its high level of pollutants, diesel fuel must undergo additional filtration which contributes to a sometimes higher cost. "Diesel powered cars generally have about a 40% better fuel economy than equivalent gasoline engines[1] and produce only about 69% of the greenhouse gases. This greater fuel economy is due to the higher per-liter energy content of diesel fuel and also to the intrinsic efficiency of the diesel engine. While diesel's 15% higher volumetric energy density results in 15% higher greenhouse gas emissions per liter compared to gasoline[2], the 40% better fuel economy achieved by modern diesel-engined automobiles offsets the higher-per-liter emissions of greenhouse gases, resulting in significantly lower carbon dioxide emissions per kilometer." So you'd multiply the gasoline mpg by 1.18 to correct for the lower density of gasoline compared to diesel fuel. So the 15 mpg of a gasoline engine should be corrected to 15(1.18) = 17.6 mpg for comparison to an equivalent weight of diesel fuel.
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Replying to: jim314 (Feb 03, 2007 5:44 pm) Jim, I realize your information is probably accurate according to some study somewhere. I'm just having trouble with it. Mostly from personal experience and observation. The part I don't understand is the "equivalent". Just how do we compare and make equivalent the gas and the diesel engines. Do we compare torque, horsepower, or displacement? Diesels generally will produce more torque and less horse power than an "Equal Size", displacement, gas engine. Therefore diesels of equal displacement will do more "work". However their MPG will be similar to the same displacement gas engine unless working really hard. Just reading the "Real World Mileage" over on the Dodge Ram forum, the Diesels are getting a little better than the gas, but not 40%. I know that is not a fair comparison as they are comparing trucks that "WORK" with heavier loads and weigh more. My 360 CI Ram was considerably "quicker" than a friends Cummings Turbo Diesel. Mine was a 98 and his a year or two newer. His was rated to tow considerably more. I averaged a shade over 14 daily driving and 18 road. He said he was getting about 2 better on both. Still not 40%. It does get confusing to me! Kip
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Replying to: kipk (Feb 04, 2007 7:08 am) Torque output can be changed by gearing, power output is proportional to the product of the torque and the rpms. A diesel engine will have a lower max power rating than a gasser of the same max torque because the diesel cannot reach the same max rpms. But most diesels do get more power out of the same weight of fuel than a gasoline engine. You can find explanations of why this is so, usually cited is that air pumping resistance in the gasser is higher because gassers are "throttled" whereas diesels have no throttle restricting air flow into the cylinders; and higher thermodynamic efficiency of the diesel due to its higher compression ratio. But the fact is that most people hardly ever run their engines in passenger cars at high rpms and peak power. They drive at rpms around the torque maximum because this is fuel efficient and doesn't give the impression that the engine is straining. Under these conditions a diesel and a gasser with the same max torque rating will accelerate the car about the same. The fact that the diesel will have a much lower max hp rating than the gasser will not be evident unless you are trying to pass another vehicle on an uphill 2-lane road, or are testing 0-60mph performance. I think that in the past people who got diesels in passenger cars were looking for fuel efficiency and would accept lower hp engines which gave inferior acceleration that the gassers offered in that car. Here is a quote from an automotive engineer: ". . . look at the BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) of each engine. For example, a Cummins ISB (the Dodge Pickup engine) is rated at 0.34 lbs/hp/hr. As a comparison, the Detroit Diesel Series 60 is rated at 0.38 lbs/hp/hr and most gasoline engines are in the .48-.52lbs/hp/hr class. (Those figures are for peak torque, which is generally the most fuel efficient point.)" See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSFC But in my opinion the diesel engine in pick-up trucks do not appeal to the buyer as much on the basis of fuel efficiency, but rather high torque, fairly high horsepower (not much less than the gasoline engines offered in that truck), longevity, durability, diesel image. So the engines in diesel trucks are slower 0-60mph than gassers but not a lot slower. The diesel will be a much more expensive engine which can better tolerate continuous operation at a higher percent of max power output than the gasoline engines offered in that truck. Hence it will probably have a more durable transmission and a higher towing rating. |
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