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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol
921 messages, Last post on Oct 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM
You are in the Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel Forum. Your Host is pf_flyer
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Replying to: jkinzel (Jun 07, 2009 6:58 pm) |
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BP has released their Energy Statistics-2009. Ethanol has increased from 26.5 Million Tons Oil Equivalent to 34.8 MTOE which is a growth of 30 % +. In the year 1998 only 9.7 MTOE was produced. So in the last 10 years, its grown nearly 4 fold, especially with much of the increase from 2002. As the oil prices continue to increase, we have to move further into Ethanol. Also the Cellulose Ethanol has come to the market. Hope the Ethanol production may grow even faster when the E15 standard is allowed. Also the Ethanol from Sugar Beet is still an unexplored one. Hope that too joins. Dear gagrice - dont keep posting old articles. Ever since Brazil introduced the flexfuel E100 vehicles in the year 2003, their Ethanol is a Big Success story. In 2003 - 6% of their new vehicles are Flexfule 2004 - 17% 2005 - 51% 2006 - 73% 2007 & 2008 - 80% +
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Replying to: yerth10 (Jun 12, 2009 12:48 pm) Environmental Defense released a report yesterday that tries to calculate the impact that biofuel plants (ones that produce corn ethanol) might have on the massive water source. The report, called "Potential Impacts of Biofuels Expansion on Natural Resources: A Case Study of the Ogallala Aquifer Region," says that pumping too much more water out of the ground for ethanol "could cause Depression-style dust bowls." New ethanol plants in the area would use up an extra 2.6 billion gallons of water a year and another 120 billion gallons would be needed to grow the corn. http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/21/ogallala-aquifer-and-ethanol-the-potenti- al-for-another-dust-bo/ How about the destruction of the fisheries in the Gulf of Mexico? My concerns for the environment are just as important as your need for alternative fuels. Corn ethanol is now and has always been a knee jerk reaction to the high price of oil. With little or NO concerns for the environment that is being destroyed raising crops for fuel all around the World. |
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Hi gagrice You may be right that Corn Ethanol is a kneejerk reaction to rising oil prices. But we dont have any other alternative other than CNG vehicles which is also expensive (vehicle costs 5K more). Given this scenario, the Ethanol is promoted. But Corn Ethanol is just the initial part, soon its cousins will join. Already Cellulose Ethanol has hit the market Cellulose Ethanol http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/shell-e10.html#more Sugarbeet Ethanol http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/blog2/2008/10/30/european-council-revises-sugarbee- t-ethanol-gges-qualifying-it-for-eu-biofuel-targets/ Algae Biofuels http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2009/06/is-the-future-of-bi- ofuels-in-algae http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/belgian-biofuel-secret-algae-development- .php Pretty soon, all these put together will be able to generate 30 billion + gallons of Bio-fuels. Meanwhile the Bio-electricity concept is also gathering steam with some European utilities using Wood for generating power. We should also point out the pollution from Oil and also the wars & civil wars fought for this fuel. Its really bad.
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When an ethanol proponent can answer this one, maybe I'll jump on the "ethanol is great" bandwagon... First - I have no idea what percentage of ethanol is in the gas I've been forced to use for the last year since at most of the stations I've used the decal on the pump says, "Contains up to 10% ethanol". Second - What I DO know is that the mileage on both my cars has dropped a solid 10% and even further in the winter. One time in the last year we were at a location where I was able to go through two fillups with non-ethanol-laced gas and my mileage instantly went back up to the numbers I had been getting. As soon as we returned home to fuel with ethanol, the mileage dropped back down 10% So riddle me this... Looking at the same number of miles driven, my use of gasoline has not been reduced at all, and has probably increased since the reduced mileage I'm getting requires more fillups to drive the same amount. Why should I be excited about ANY form of ethanol being added being added to my fuel? 
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Replying to: pf_flyer (Jun 13, 2009 2:53 am)
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Replying to: yerth10 (Jun 12, 2009 8:06 pm) Biofuels are also a decent idea to run in parallel, yes. Sending so much money to the Middle East (among others) and being so dependent on them is a bad idea in general. But corn ethanol was and is a bad idea: it drives our food prices up, uses up too much water to create, and in fact uses about a gallon of petroleum-based fuel to create a gallon of corn ethanol. Considering that said gallon of corn ethanol contains less energy than a gallon of petro ethanol, that's a net loss of energy. 10% I think, wasted, put to no purpose. The key is efficiency here. Simply because something isn't petroleum based doesn't make it good. It's also important to not be wasteful. That's why I like the idea of trying to chase ethanol based on plant waste. Now, from the article you mentioned, it sounds like there's been some success in creating it, which is an important step. But now we have to look at how many energy units it takes to create an energy unit of cellulosic ethanol...ideally it would be a 0.9:1 or better ratio...I'd settle for 1:1 for now. Sugar beets, like corn, are a bad idea. Brazil may have been successful with sugar cane, but I'm not sure it was a wise move. Converting any potential food source from food to fuel eventually runs you into the problem of having to decide between one or the other when you run short of one or both. |
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Replying to: pf_flyer (Jun 13, 2009 2:53 am)  Unfortunately, they'd be lying...this blend stuff is a dodge. Why? Wait for it... BECAUSE IT STILL REQUIRES PETROLEUM-BASED GASOLINE!! What we should really be doing is asking why we're chasing these technologies that require us to continue using imported gasoline in the near future? Yeah, maybe it reduces the amount we need infinitesimally...but then some goofball goes and burns more of it, or probably his kid with his brand new V8 whatever it is going joyriding and so we import the same amount of barrels anyway. We don't save anything doing those blends, and they're not a midway "step" to anything that actually gets us OFF of dino-fuel. CNG would. Bio-diesel would. E100 wouldn't. If nothing else, there will be a backlash by the Alcoholics Association of America claiming we're depleting their supply of hard liquor. And then we'd have people drinking out of our gas tanks. |
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Replying to: galonga (Jun 13, 2009 4:05 am) I think you are not understanding the concept of net gain. The idea was to replace a gallon of gas with a gallon of ethanol. Or at least some gain. There is NO gain. If I put 10 gallons of regular gas in my car and go 200 miles, then put 10 gallons of E10 in my car and only go 180 miles, the ethanol has gained me nothing. It has only been a source of revenue for those involved in the growing of corn and production of the ethanol. In the meantime it is destroying the fishery in the Gulf of Mexico. The Dead Zone is a well documented result of the excessive use of anhydrous ammonia in the growing of corn. It is depleting the ground water at an alarming rate. The US government is not interested in ethanol as an alternative fuel or they would not put a tariff on ethanol from Brazil. Most of the $2+ per gallon subsidy goes to buying the fossil fuel required to produce Corn for ethanol. It is not a stepping stone. It is political pandering to the Midwest where Corn Ethanol is produced. Nothing more. It is a giant con game. We pay with higher taxes and at the pump. Corporate welfare pure and simple. |
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Yes, there is a 50 cent subsidy for American Ethanol, but there is also a 50 cent import duty on Brazilian Ethanol. Both should be phased out slowly. To produce Ethanol that generates 100 units, the input is Electricity (50 units) - For Refining Diesel (30 units) - For Tractors & Trucks and the remaining 20 units comes from Sun & Earth. So we are able to save 70 units of Diesel (Petro fuel). Its true that Ethanol has 25 % less energy, but gasolene is now becoming a luxury and we have to settle with Ethanol. As per BP Stats 2009, Ethanol increases 30 % over prevoius year Wind - 30 % Geothermal - 4 % Solar - 69 % So all renewables are growing rapidly and fossil fuels are growing slowly.
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