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The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

921 messages,  Last post on Oct 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM

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#770 of 921 Re: One of the pluses... [bpizzuti] by gagrice May 25, 2009 (3:20 pm)
Replying to: bpizzuti (May 25, 2009 8:13 am) Of course if they DO manage to convert waste, woodchips, or switchgrass to ethanol, and it uses up less energy to create and convert than it generates when burned, then it might be viable to get more E100 engines out there. Key word, "if."   I'm glad you used the word IF. That is the big issue. No one has built a plant that can produce ethanol from waste, (switchgrass) etc, that does not require more fossil fuel than it replaces. VW builds cars for Brazil that will run on gas or pure ethanol. Of course Brazil is cutting down the rain forest to plant sugar to make ethanol. How great is that? Right now there is over $2 per gallon subsidy on raising corn for ethanol. Not to mention several of the new ethanol stills are heating with COAL. There goes any environmental benefit. Even with the subsidies the price of corn is driving the small operators into bankruptcy. More jobs gone, thanks to our meddling government. Replies to this message: bpizzuti (May 25, 2009 3:45 pm) cvs20 (May 25, 2009 4:18 pm)
#771 of 921 Re: One of the pluses... [gagrice] by bpizzuti May 25, 2009 (3:45 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (May 25, 2009 3:20 pm) Well, hey, we could always use more sugar. Replies to this message: cvs20 (May 25, 2009 4:18 pm)
#772 of 921 Re: e85 Fuel Economy vs Gasoline [bpizzuti] by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (4:16 pm)
Replying to: bpizzuti (May 24, 2009 4:10 pm) Engine optimization is certainly going to help improve performance of ethanol fuels. In my last message, I was exceedingly kind to the ethanol folks with economy figures. Actually, it takes 1.50 gallons of pure ethanol to replace 1.0 gallon of gasoline. E85 requires 1.35 gallons, and 10% blend 1.05 gallons to do the equivalent of 1.0 gallon of gasoline. In other words, E85 would have to sell at 74% the price of gasoline to be competitive. My 4th Year Engineering Project in College was researching ethanol as a motor fuel (note: at that time gasoline was about $035 per gallon, and my test fuel was $7.56 per gallon - because of gov't tarrif). It DOES have its good points: ethyl alcohol exhibits a much higher octane rating than gasoline. I was able to run at compression ratios around 16 : 1 without "knocking" as opposed to 9 or 10 : 1 for gasoline, and the 10% blend can reduce knocking in most normal engines. Because of the high pressures available, an engine can produce much more power on ethanol or E85. Power and Economy are at odds: the more power produced, the faster fuel is burned, just like Congress throwing money at problems in order to maintain their power. I also agree that the politicians must be either drinking some, or smoking something, to not understand the basics, or else someone is blowing smoke up..... Local sourcing is GREAT, but in just a few years the population will have grown to the point where there are only about 2 acres of arable land per person. If corn were to be used, an acre of corn can supply about 300 gallons of ethanol, so, we either starve and use 600 gallons of fuel, or we eat.
#773 of 921 Re: One of the pluses... [bpizzuti] by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (4:18 pm)
Replying to: bpizzuti (May 25, 2009 3:45 pm) Great idea. Less corn required! Oceanic algae has also recently come on stage.
#774 of 921 Re: #772 and #773 by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (4:25 pm)
When things get really bad, we could use 1 acre of land for food, and one to drink! Replies to this message: gagrice (May 25, 2009 5:19 pm) cvs20 (May 26, 2009 5:24 pm)
#775 of 921 Re: What amazes me [pf_flyer] by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (4:35 pm)
Replying to: pf_flyer (May 25, 2009 6:45 am) That's exactly what my Mechanical Engineering research showed, but did anyone ever read it or use it (it was done for the Associate Dean, who was my Senior Project Advisor.   My question to the corn-based proponents is: what fuel do you use to produce the corn, and to make the equipment, etc??   Don't even get me STARTED on the hydrogen debacle!
#776 of 921 Re: One of the pluses... [bpizzuti] by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (4:54 pm)
Replying to: bpizzuti (May 25, 2009 8:13 am) Bio-Diesel is a viable contender, but also has some baggage. Diesel engines require compression ratios between 14 : 1 and 25 : 1. The extreme pressures require stronger, and most likely heavier, engines and components, and more weight requires more fuel.   One possible configuration for vehicles might be to copy the railroads on a smaller scale. The Diesel-electric configuration of most railroad traction motors uses Diesel engines to drive generators which, in turn, apply power to electric drive motors. The beauty of that is that the generator-to-motor energy transmission can approach 60% efficiency (that is, each 100 revolutions of the generator can cause 60 revolutions at each drive motor.   That's the main reason steam trains are mostly history - just can't compete.
#777 of 921 Re: No pluses and a Net Negative [morin2] by cvs20 May 25, 2009 (5:18 pm)
Replying to: morin2 (May 25, 2009 9:59 am) Yeah, alcohol is corrosive to unprotected steel parts, and also is hazardous to most common, low priced, seals and other elastomer components. Tends to leach out the "plasticizers" leaving the parts brittle.   It is also hygroscopic (absorbs water and often used to clean up accumulated fuel tank water), but then is quickly burned through the engine with little to no residue, but a tank full including absorbed water will further reduce economy.   Theoretically, E10 performance should be 95% that of gasoline. Which means that my well designed 30 mpg car should only get 28.5 mpg with E10. This is where I DO run many times on the highway. Sometimes it drops to around 27 mpg, and that REALLY ticks me because I got stuck with expensive watered-down blended fuel !!!   It takes 1.50 gallons of ethanol (E100) to equal 1 gallon of gasoline. It takes 2.00 gallons of methanol (M100) to do the same.   Best thing about either is you can extinguish a fire using only water !!
#778 of 921 Re: #772 and #773 [cvs20] by gagrice May 25, 2009 (5:19 pm)
Replying to: cvs20 (May 25, 2009 4:25 pm) When things get really bad, we could use 1 acre of land for food, and one to drink!   Sadly the price of exporting corn to Mexico is so high that the farmers are digging up the blue agave and planting corn. No blue agave no good tequila. Now if that ain't a serious problem I don't know what is. Replies to this message: cvs20 (May 26, 2009 5:24 pm)
#779 of 921 Re: What amazes me [pf_flyer] by colloquor May 26, 2009 (6:27 am)
Replying to: pf_flyer (May 25, 2009 6:45 am) FWIW... here in central Illinois, 10% ethanol blended gas has been around since the mid-80s. It's almost impossible to buy gas in this area without 10% ethanol. Only one station that I was aware of in the Champaign-Urbana area offered non-ethanol blended gasoline, and now that station has switched to 10% ethanol blend too. For most of midwesterners, 10% ethanol blended gas is a way of life, and has been for over 2 decades. Replies to this message: gagrice (May 26, 2009 7:03 am) jkinzel (May 26, 2009 8:23 am) gagrice (May 26, 2009 1:49 pm) jkinzel (May 26, 2009 3:43 pm) morin2 (May 26, 2009 6:56 pm)

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