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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol
921 messages, Last post on Oct 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM
You are in the Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel Forum. Your Host is pf_flyer
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Replying to: midnightcowboy (Aug 07, 2006 12:46 pm) If you are used to 30MPG's, it would be easy to have a drop of 1MPG under IDEAL conditions, 2MPG would certainly not be atypical. My congresswoman still thinks this E85 stuff represents "salvation." I want this to be true -- it just isn't so. However, with diesel we could stop importing from SA -- IF, 30% of the cars were diesel powered and equivalent "power" and cost of their gas engined counterparts. The BMW 3 series diesel if imported to the US and if it were priced at a $1,200 premium over the 330i gas version would pay for itself in a bit over 35,000 miles and from then on would start to have a TCO that would be lower for the diesel than for the gas version. Performance (acceleration), in this example, between the gas and diesel versions are very close due to the diesel's weapons grade torque. The mileage however exceeds a 40% improvement. Check out the review in the new C&D. Audi, too, produces some of the best diesels in the world -- with Audi, BMW and Mercedes engineering muscle and perhaps a diesel/electric hybrid, we would really make some progress in energy independence. The effect, too, would be lower greehouse gasses and we could buy time to perfect either newer and/or different and better technologies or improve our ability to get at the world's largest oil reserves (800 billion bbls.) that just happen to be in Colorado, et al. The talk on the T and V this week is "$4" gasoline. What's it gonna take $5/gallon to work on a mature and ever improving technology and put it under the hoods of American's cars? Yeah, $5/gallon, sustained for months and months and months would probably "get our attention." At the momemnt Ethanol and E85 are simply false promises. Yet, even believing that, I also believe we need to work on creating fuel that we can renew and renew and renew. Bio-diesel made from soybeans makes more sense from a fuel standpoint, an economy standpoint and a FARMING and FOOD standpoint (something that seems to be ignored in all of this Ethanol noise.)
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Aug 09, 2006 6:46 am) BTW, what hasn't received much coverage is that the world's second largest oil field, Cantarell in Mexico, is entering a rather spectacular decline. Its production is down by around 7 to 8% from last year and the drop is expected to get steeper over the next year (that's the nature of these maximum contact horizontal wells). Mexico is our second biggest source of petroleum. And a further crimp on Mexican petroleum exports is that internal consumption is on the rise. So as an alternative for a renewable resource I'm going to suggest whale blubber. You can burn it, you can eat it, and it even makes a great skin moisturizer. |
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Replying to: chewym (Jun 22, 2006 5:59 pm)
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Replying to: gypsy_tech (Aug 15, 2006 10:06 am) The US government not only hands out $.51 per gallon to the producers. They guarantee the price of corn to the farmer. Plus the biggest gamble is they guarantee the loans on the ethanol plants. We were on the hook for the 90 ethanol plants that were dismantled during the last go around with ethanol. ADM has nothing to lose and millions to gain. We are paying the price with little or nothing to show for it. I can make a profit on anything if the government builds the factory and makes sure I get as much as I want for the product. Do you think I trust ethanol.org to give an accurate mileage on E10? NO!!!
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Replying to: gagrice (Aug 16, 2006 8:45 am) |
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I thought of myself as a relatively intelligent person until I read today's CNN article regarding the President meeting with the Detroit 2.5 (GM, Ford and DC) about E85. The Big 2.5 is touting this as the way to reduce US dependency on foreign oil for security and environmental reasons. I'm sorry but everything I have read says E85 fuel give 25-33% LESS fuel economy then regular gas. the only reason the big 2.5 uses it is they receive a huge "credit" toward the CAFE standards, which makes no sense. Also it smells like this is the "cheapest" way they can accomplish more fuel efficient engines is through the use of this bogus technology. I guess that hybrid technology just isn't panning out the way it should for them. Maybe I am misreading something but please somebody explain this to me!!!
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Replying to: dtownfb (Mar 26, 2007 11:15 am) |
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And in addition to paying the producers 51 cents a gallon in subsidy they are also charging a tariff of 53 cent per gallon on imported sugar cane ethanol. Yes, that means they are giving the corn lobby a $1.04 price advantage for nothing. I'd be much happier with diesel or at least with importing ethanol from Brazil rather than oil from the Middle East, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria and all our other "pals." |
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I get the feeling that most people think that Ethanol is just a terrible thing. I ask you the question, how can you say that this is a terrible alternative in the short term to our age old plan of burning dirty non-renewable fossil fuels, mostly coming from the worst part of this world. Why not step up and embrace something that is RENEWABLE and made right here in the USA. I have been burning E85 in my 07 Silverado LT2, have been achieving 14 mpg on the highway. Also, even though the Govt is giving out the .51 subsidy, new ethanol plants can produce 3 gallons of ethanol to 1 bushel of corn. Currently on the CBOT, ethanol is trading at $2.13 a gallon, Corn is currently at $3.75, so do the math, even without the subsidy, the break even on just the ethanol sales is $6.39. That does not include the added revenue brought on by the sale of the ethanol byproduct DDG's, which is a very popular cattle feed stock. I know this is not the long term solution to the energy problem, can easily be seen that Hydrogen is the long term solution. But why not embrace a cleaner, renewable, domestic made fuel that can put a dent in all the gasoline consumption, just seems like a no-brainer to me. Also this DOES support American farmers, go look at all the commodity markets compared to a year ago, most of them are up 50-75% compared to one year ago, this is due to one thing ETHANOL. And complaining about higher food prices, I geuss if this nation wants to have the cheapest food in the world as it does today, so be it, but I will pay a little more in the grocery stores, Heck if we can buy these new cars, we can afford to spend a lil more in the checkout line. Ethanol gets a black eye for no reason I think. With farmers burning bio-diesel in the farm equipment used to produce the corn, turns into a bio-fuels circle. Good deal in my mind, tell the Arabs to keep their oil over there!
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Replying to: nascar57 (Apr 16, 2007 7:42 am) If you have a ready supply of E85, I say go for it. You are taking a 27% hit in mileage according to the new EPA ratings. That means when regular unleaded is selling for $3 per gallon you would need to get E85 for $2.19 to break even. That is just the economics for you as an individual. You have left out the cost in fossil fuel to grow that bushel of corn for ethanol. The most optimistic studies are somewhere around a 20% positive gain. Or for every 8/10ths of a gallon of fossil fuel you get one gallon of ethanol. Then you burn it in your vehicle at a 27% loss and you can see you are in negative territory. So much for economics. Now to the environment. Growing corn the way it is done to get the highest yield per acre is killing the Gulf of Mexico. Google the Dead Zone and read about what all the fertilizer run-off is doing. The Union of Concerned Scientists are not on the side of ethanol. One of the biggest problems is the vehicles you and I choose to drive. Here is where the dirty little secrets about ethanol come into play. GM builds a PU truck and equips it to burn E85. Sounds eco friendly right? Wrong, they only did that to get a higher CAFE rating. That gets the automaker off the hook on building more economical vehicles. If we were interested in ethanol as an alternative and not just more PORK, we would have pulled the 53 cent tariff off of Brazilian ethanol. Ethanol can be made from sugar cane without big subsidies. My last big gripe about ethanol is the fact that it was forced onto the whole USA. It has to be trucked to CA, WA & OR at a very high cost per gallon to be mixed with our designer gas. Making us pay the highest gas prices in the nation, aside from Hawaii. To a school child ethanol looks like a great idea, because they are only told part of the story. None of the infrastructure we are now building will be usable when they figure out how to make ethanol from waste products. So we will buy the plants twice to satisfy the constituencies in the Mid West. Making Verasun, ADM and the mega-ag corporations very wealthy with no risk. We are taking all the risk for them. links http://www.smm.org/deadzone/causes/top.html Ethanol Dirty Secrets |
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