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The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

921 messages,  Last post on Oct 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM

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#549 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [gagrice] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (7:50 pm)
Reply

Replying to: gagrice (Jun 14, 2008 11:16 am)

Well you have a choice of 2 oxygenates to reduce emissions. Its MTBE or Ethanol. Wait a minute, MTBE is a carcinigen and has been found in California ground water. If ethanol was used then it would have just decomposed. Why are there hardly any stations in CA with E85? I dont know. There are 5 ethanol plants in CA. I believe Pacific Ethanol has 5 of them.
 
If you lose 2 mpg I dont know what to say. I only lose 20% with E85 in an F150. My buddy has a GM and only loses 20% also. Maybe you should check with the dealer for calibration updates.
#550 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [tfb27] by texases
Jun 14, 2008 (7:54 pm)
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 7:50 pm)

"Well you have a choice of 2 oxygenates to reduce emissions."
 
Thanks for pointing out another government screw-up - mandating oxygenate content because of the very slight, and debateable, pollution impact. A recent study by Stanford, I think, found that overall, emissions are higher with E10. So first we poison some groundwater with MTBE, then wast billions and drive up food prices with ethanol, all for naught.
#551 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [texases] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (7:55 pm)
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Replying to: texases (Jun 14, 2008 1:43 pm)

Soon there will be E85 across the country. Then you can use. Did you know the state of CA has a fleet of Ford Escape Hybrids that are designed for E85 use only for them to study. Then you dont need reg gas. Just like when the country switched to no lead gas. We did it before.
#552 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [texases] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (8:00 pm)
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Replying to: texases (Jun 14, 2008 7:54 pm)

I know you. A complaint for everything and a solution for nothing. Nag. Nag. Nag. You must be a an older guy. What do you think should be done? Everyone is bitchin here and I havent seen any potential fixes.
#553 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [avalon02wh] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (8:09 pm)
Reply

Replying to: avalon02wh (Jun 14, 2008 7:43 am)

How does ethanol help diesel? First the more gas we displace wth ethanol then the more refining capacity is open for diesel. Gas and diesel are made by the same refining plant. The reason its so expensive is that diesel is in high demand and there is only limited refining capacity in the US. Diesel is actually cheaper to make than gasoline. The Europeans cant understand why it more expensive in America only.
 
Here is the problem with diesel. The cost of the engine is still higher than a gas version and the emissions requirements make the after treatment of the exhaust even more expensive. This doesnt happen in FFV's
#554 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [tfb27] by texases
Jun 14, 2008 (8:12 pm)
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 8:00 pm)

I am someone concerned that we are squandering money and food to line the pockets of agribusiness. A bad idea is a bad idea, even if it makes a small group of people very wealthy. A good friend is a chemical engineer that works for a company that designs ethanol plants, and he is constantly amazed that we're wasting our money on this. If turning corn inefficiently into ethanol is a bad idea, doing more of it solves nothing. The only current method to make ethanol that makes any sense is from sugar, and we're taxing imports to limit that. Even with cane-based ethanol, there are major impacts to the Amazon Basin in Brazil. My solutions? Put E85 mandates (and the whole biofuels movement) on hold until new technology (cellulosic or algae, maybe) is shown to actually make sense, and not result in major ecologic and economic damage, as the current programs do.
#555 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [texases] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (8:26 pm)
Reply

Replying to: texases (Jun 14, 2008 8:12 pm)

Field corn used in ethanol cant be eaten by people. So it is not a food source. Second corn based ethanol can happen now and it gets the ball rolling in this country for other things like cellulosic. Having fuel isnt enough. Getting the ball rolling means updating the infrastructure and producing vehicles to run it. These thoings need to be done before cellulosic comes online or the producers cant make money at it if it cant be distributed or consumed. Thats why we are starting with corn based ethanol. Besides, only the corn kernel is used for fuel. The cob and stalk are put back into the field. When cellulosic techs are developed these parts can be utilized to produce fuel. With no more acres consumed or people going hungry.
 
Do you have #'s on how good sugar cane ethanol is compared to corn?
 
The real solution is for consumption to reduce by 80%. Maybe a plague or nuclear war will make that happen. I cant think of another way. So we therefore need to produce more fuel in the world.
#556 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [tfb27] by texases
Jun 14, 2008 (8:33 pm)
Reply

Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 8:26 pm)

"Do you have #'s on how good sugar cane ethanol is compared to corn? "
 
Recent articles in Scientific American, National Geographic, and Consumer Reports all describe the much higher energy efficiency of ethanol production from sugar cane, compared to corn. Are you unaware of this?
#557 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [texases] by tfb27
Jun 14, 2008 (8:36 pm)
Reply

Replying to: texases (Jun 14, 2008 8:33 pm)

I need some #'s. Here is the future of corn. Current yield is 155 bushels per acre. Monsanto estimates are 300 bushels per acre by 2030. Current conversion of 2.8 gal per bushel. Future estimates are 3.2 gal per bushel. Throw in the cob and stalk conversion as cellosic ( i dont have the #'s on this). All in without substituting other crops
#558 of 921
Re: Corn going for $7.25 a bushel [tfb27] by gagrice
Jun 14, 2008 (9:26 pm)
Reply

Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 8:26 pm)

First oxygenated fuel is a total waste of money. It does nothing in a modern gasoline engine to reduce emissions. If the UC Davis study is accurate their is a slight increase with E10 laced gas.
 
Field corn used in ethanol cant be eaten by people.
 
I know you are smarter than that. If you are growing corn for ethanol you are NOT growing wheat, soy or any other food product. If all you read is the propaganda put out by the ethanol industry. You will have a very skewed perspective on the subject. Dumping more fertilizer, made with natural gas to produce more corn is a BAD thing. You really need to study two important things. One is the run-off into the rivers ending in the Gulf. And the aquifer that is being depleted to grow these huge corn crops.
 
You don't seem much into facts so I will post a few for you to contemplate.
 
Officials with Pilgrim's Pride, the largest chicken processor in the U.S., announced this week the company will close a chicken processing complex and six of its 13 distribution centers in the United States in response to the crisis facing the U.S. chicken industry from soaring feed-ingredient costs resulting from corn-based ethanol production.
 
http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ag/story/data/12- - 05415188705.xml
 
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/speakout/science/jan-june08/ethanol_3-19.html
 
Heavily subsidized and absurdly inefficient, corn-based ethanol has already driven up food prices. But the Senate's plan to increase production to 36 billion gallons by 2022, from less than seven billion today, will place even greater pressure on farm-belt aquifers.
 
Ethanol plants consume roughly four gallons of water to produce each gallon of fuel, but that's only a fraction of ethanol's total water habit. Cornell ecology professor David Pimentel says that when you count the water needed to grow the corn, one gallon of ethanol requires a staggering 1,700 gallons of H2O. Backers of the Senate bill say that less-thirsty technologies are just around the corner, which is what we've been hearing for years.
 
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119258870811261613.html

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